Trials Bren gun

[desperatedan]

After all the earlier interesting discussion on these "trials type" guns I followed up with the dealer and managed to secure the last one.

From the features and markings I believe that it's one of those ordered by the Irish Army in 1936/7. I think the story goes that the Irish placed an order with Britain. Enfield, having their hands full with development of "their" Bren, in turn ordered these from the Czechs. The Czechs apparently took this to be an order for the last agreed prototype but when it turned out not to be to the latest design the balance of the order was cancelled after only 2-300 guns had been produced. These early guns were consigned to DP status by the Irish as they acquired Mk3 guns in the 50's.

I've tried to show some of the salient features of this example - FF Irish marking, AA sight mounting point/ring on the butt, different tripod mount on the butt, forward sling mount, etc.

On initial inspection I think the only non-original part is the Enfield marked bipod. In actual fact this is not the gun I was expecting to receive - the pictures of the one I ordered had an Enfield type butt with the British rather than Czech tripod mounting point but what was interesting on that example was that it also had the AA sight mounting ring at the front of the butt - it had a slightly later serial number so maybe the Brno factory updated the specs as the order progressed? Anyway if this is one of only 2-300 or so guns to this spec I'm happy to add it to my small collection.

Apologies for the iphone pictures - these were taken in haste as I had to head away for a work trip and as a consequence I've not had a chance to check the internals yet. Luckily however it is not to the latest EU "only any good as a paperweight" deact spec, so it still cocks, dry fires etc.

Hope this of interest.

Kev

[Peter Laidler]

The barrel has a UK Military proof on it. Looks like it is (?) a standard UK made Mk1 barrel with the stepped flash eliminator. This could be why it was made into DP because as I recall, the ZB gun barrels and barrel nuts were simple interrupted lugs whereas the Bren interrupted lugs were in fact a fine pitched thread that drew the barrel back tight. So some fettling of the barrel thread might have to have been made. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (KevG or ZGB). The backsight assembly might also be Enfield - so examine it carefully. Correctly speaking, the Enfield made 'trials' guns were the first 400 guns made, numbered from 0001 to 0400. All to do with licensing agreements and all that.......!

[desperatedan]

Thanks Peter.

I did notice the British proof mark but I wonder if it was due to the fact that the Irish ordered from Britain and it was Enfield who, having "outsourced" the order to Brno received the guns and proofed them before supplying to the Fianna Fáil.

The dealer may have described these as "trials type" as they're very akin to the ZGB34 based examples that I believe formed part of the trials and as you say licensing agreements etc came into play as well.

I'll have a closer look at it again when I get a chance, but on initial inspection I didn't see any obvious Enfield marks on the rear sight.

I wonder what the AA sight looked like?

[browningautorifle]

Hope this of interest.

What a nice looking old gun.

[mrclark303]

What an interesting example, a fascinating Bren side story and a rare piece! Pleased for you that its not welded solid too!

Will you be keeping her as is, or cosmetically restoring her?

[MGMike]

The published records of CZ in Brno do not list any sales of Brens to Ireland, so it is probable that any Brens in Irish service were obtained from the UK, not Czechoslovakia. The UK got 85 in total. The 3,000 ZB39 "Brens" made for Bulgaria were unique in being chambered for 8x56mm. A few other countries obtained CZ Brens in caliber .303 before the war: 1,060 to Egypt, 850 to Iraq and 600 to Latvia.

After the war, of course, the Czechs sold small quantities (probably assembled from leftover parts) that have turned up in many locales. Here is one of them, wearing a British barrel and magazine-- everything else is original Czech. It once had a crest, but has been scrubbed.

M

[MGMike]

...as I recall, the ZB gun barrels and barrel nuts were simple interrupted lugs whereas the Bren interrupted lugs were in fact a fine pitched thread that drew the barrel back tight. So some fettling of the barrel thread might have to have been made. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong .....

Peter: Not trying to be punctillious about this, but I think you'll find the interrupted lug angles on both ZB and UK Brens are the same. If there was any interference that required adjustment it was probably a tolerance matter between metric/imperial at the extremes. British and Commonwealth barrels and ZB locking nuts work very well together if selectively assembled (which one must do anyway). This tightening feature also appeared earlier on the ZB26 and 30, though the barrel shanks and corresponding locking nuts were of much smaller diameter than on a Bren.

M

[Peter Laidler]

Mmmmmmmmmm Interesting Mike............ I looked at this barrel locking nut thread angle matter while I had the trials ZB's you mention, the early production Brens and the trials paperwork on my lap in the classroom and in these cases, it DIDN'T all correspond as you say and it's this that made me comment on it. It was brought to my notice by various comments in the trials reports. But to be honest, I didn't make too much of it or comment too deeply in my research because I'd already decided that to keep reverse 'mission creep' to a minimum, and I mention this, that enough had already been written about the ZB's whereas this book was about the mighty Bren. And if you need to........ etc etc. The trials/Ordnance Board reports state that teh threaded interrupted castellated nut of the Bren would be a thread. But like I say, I could be wrong - or the OB could be wrong.

The ZGB39 gun was an almost direct copy of the UK made Bren except for some external design features. It was to have been marketed by ZB to OUR allies because the original licensing agreement was limited to the UK needs plus manufacture in Canada ( o augmant UK needs plus Canadian needs) and Australia (their needs) BUT manufactured under the UK licensing agreement. While we and others vastly exceeded their agreement regarding the QUANTITIES and side issues (which I take to mean the Mk2 and 3's) We paid up in full.

[Warren]

Nice piece Mike.....
Here is a bit of an enigma.
Mind you, it is a bingo card of numbers with a British barrel and British mag but in .303
No scrubbed markings, and by the serial number the Pattern Room thought it might be the South African or one of the missing ZGB samples.
The Pattern Room have the records of the trials sample serial numbers up to this one. One number away.
Attachment 81791Attachment 81790Attachment 81789

[Kev G]

This tightening feature also appeared earlier on the ZB26 and 30, though the barrel shanks and corresponding locking nuts were of much smaller diameter than on a Bren.

In agreement with MGMikes observations.

Warren this script on the LH side of the receiver in your picture reads 'ZBROJOVKA BRNO A.S' which is the post German occupation factory format.
If it were before German occupation it should read 'CESKOSLOVENSKA ZBROJOVKA A.S. BRNO'
I believe it is probably post war ? The few other examples I have noted have the same offset selector lever (not centred with 0 as expected but between 0 and 1) Serial numbers usually 2xxx

ATB Kevin