Where to draw the line?

[Maplebacon]

Is there such a thing as "original" in the market place? I was castigated
for suggesting that collectors who search for "correct" parts to unmix their mixmaster was not much different than one who adds a cartouche to their stock for the finishing touch. I say it's fraudelent either way when they attempt to sell it as original. If it's in the confines of ones home, no problem, but out in the market place; please once again, explain the difference to me.

Rifles were freely dismantled, then rebuilt as mixmasters. To undo the mixmaster nature is OK, as long as it's not said to be "original".

On the other hand, an inspector cartouche is another animal entirely. It was a mark put on by the government inspector. Restamping an inspector's stamp is akin to counterfeiting.

Apples and oranges, and pretty clear to me.

[Magyar]

On the other hand, an inspector cartouche is another animal entirely. It was a mark put on by the government inspector. Restamping an inspector's stamp is akin to counterfeiting.

Deep down, I know you are right. However, I sometimes feel there is a "rush to judgement" on what is fake. By viewing a photo and w/o personal examination we become instant experts. For example, on this forum there is always the guy who asks if this eBay item (cartouche) is fake. Invariably, if the cartouche appears to have a "hard-strike" or fresh; that's usually accompanies a damning indictment. Nothing else and the poor seller gets an F.
As if a faker-moron wouldn't think that "lighter" would be better if passing it off for original by careful blending. The bottom line is that there are many stamps/dies out there that are so good that only a true-expert and personal examination are necessary to determine a credible outcome.
Anyway, just IMHO.....

[Newscotlander]

To me, that's like having a Sherman tank come out of mothballs. You don't take it 4-wheeling, but you got to take it to the parade and show it off to everyone! Those are the kind of things that you respect, take care extra care of and shoot it with as many people possible watching.

My feeling is... If you want a Sherman tank to drive around, sell the brand new one to someone who will keep it in it's current condition, and then go out and buy one that has been driven and use that one. You'll also pocket a good amount of cash because the brand new one will command a higher price based on condition alone.

Maybe you folks don't get it. The better the condition, the higher the value. Why do you think CMP is getting those big dollars for the NIW Garands? The guy who goes out and shoots that Garand has either more money than he knows what to do with, or he isn't too sharp.

I personally have two CMP carbines that I shoot. The other ones stay in the safe. Just like money in the bank.

[LittleCrane]

I, too, have never understood the need for flip sites and Type I barrel bands. To me, a USGI carbine that has been de-upgraded is about as original as one of that new Kahr commercial carbines with "early" features. To each his own, though, that's what's great about America.

I agree. While de-upgrading results in an inferior rifle, there are lots of reasons why someone might want to do it -- a re-enactor might want de-upgrade a CMP rack grade Inland with repro parts to avoid banging around an original, somebody might just want to try the original configuration to see what it's like, some people (myself included) like to play armorer -- who knows. It's a free country and if it's your rifle you can do what you want with it. Besides, you can always re-upgrade if you save the parts.

[Maplebacon]

Deep down, I know you are right. However, I sometimes feel there is a "rush to judgement" on what is fake. By viewing a photo and w/o personal examination we become instant experts.

Could not agree more with that fact. The furthest I will ever judge is when a seller seemingly posts blurry pictures of the stampings. If they know it is worth a few bills, then they darned well know that the stamping pictures should be clear as a bell.

[Tired Retired]

Maybe that is a point to focus on. The seller knows that the "mark" he is citing is why he is asking such a high price. Common sense (which I admit that I sometimes lack) says that you would use the clearest, well-lit picture to showcase that value. Makes sense. On the other hand, I have seen several clear attempts to pass a forgery off as something it is not. That goes for both on line and even at gun shows (you know the ones where they kinda don't answer questions and then start stating "facts" that ain't in no history book).

The other side of the coin is when one of us go as far as bragging about what a great deal we got off of an old widow or at a garage sale because the uninformed seller didn't realize the real value of what they were selling. My hat is off to the few of us who clearly stated in their posts that they offered a better price to an uninformed seller once the value became evident. I wish their were more people like that in the world.

I started this post with a question of where the line should be drawn. The real intent was to start a conversation (which we now have) about the values and priorities on which we place on these 65 year old pieces of metal that we all purchase for one reason or another. Everyone of these rifles is distinctively unique because of individual marks, manufacturers, condition and where it has been over the last 65 years. I think all of our collective opinions are coming together to a better point over "value". Its not if the carbine is "de-upgraded" or placed back into its original condition. Its not dollar's worth of the metal or the stock. Its the value that we all place on honesty. We like knowing that the rifle we are buying, holding, shooting and selling has an honest history. We also like knowing that the person we are dealing with in those transactions is there because they honestly enjoy the rifles for the same reason we do - and that they are not trying to trick us over something as simple as money.

I think my line that I want to draw is the value I place on honesty. Terms like "original" and "all-correct" can be debated. All I ask is that you tell me the truth about the rifle so that I can enjoy it for what it really is - a piece of history that our fathers used to make sure that their children were safe.

Thanks for the soap box.