1,000 Yard Shooting (M1D Garand Sniper Rifle)

[Mag30th]

We noticed that at 1,000 meters shooting at a 4 foot target getting groups of about 11", she was seeing several "key holed" hits in the paper, indicating a tumbling round. At 900 meters there were less of those and at 800 meters we saw none, so I don't know if that helps this discussion.

WOW!! Beautiful setup there!! I’m slowly drawing my wife into shooting… she will go out occasionally so long as we’re not out very long, I feel she will come around in time…

I’m just curious, what was the elevation of the location where this shooting took place. I’m trying to show that while a 168 may become unstable at altitudes close to sea-level, (at 1,000 yards) they do not destabilize as quickly at higher elevations. All my long range shooting is above 3,500 feet elevation, and the wood that is mounted behind the metal plate has not shown any key holing effects.
Thanks!

[Mag30th]

the results on target shown in your video is about what I'd expect out of a LR Novice in benign conditions with a bad load.

What is your issue, my goodness?!?! Personal attack after personal attack, gezz, let it go...

I’m not beating my chest looking for some type of "internet recognition" as it seems you are. Again, please stop the ongoing belittling remarks.

I’ve stated repeatedly, I collect antique military rifles, the purpose behind the 90 videos I have posted on YouTube, is to profile the rifles. This is not a contest between you and me and our shooting abilities. But, since you continually push the issue, I would love to go head to head with you with open sights, using the same rifle and the same loads.

I continually attempt to draw you back to topic yet you post remarks like the one above. Again, the issue here is and has always been, am I shooting at 1,000 yards or have I created a fraudulent video. You no longer seem interested in discussing whether or not my videos are legit. You have gone from initially stating that it couldn’t be done, to now stating that the results are what you would expect for a novice shooter.

I really hope that you do not carry yourself in this manner in person with other shooters; it’s much easier when someone is 1000 miles away over the internet I suppose. Again, give it a rest.

[Mag30th]

if your criteria runs to something a bit more in line with current competition standards, then it isn't. Set the bar low enough, and anything looks good!

The video you are criticizing, I’m shooting an original, 1950’s rifle, with the original USGI 1952 barrel. Again, I’m demonstrating the rifle, “IT IS A PROFILE ABOUT THE RIFLE.”

I’m not trying to prove to the world what an awesome guy I am, nor am I attempting to make myself the worlds 2nd best shooter (clearly, reading the comment you have posted about yourself, you are the world’s greatest LR shooter).

If you are not interested in discussing whether or not the distances are factual or not, please, again, move on. I’m not into the internet insult back and forth stuff.

[Mag30th]

if you were shooting that load at say Camp Perry....your load would be dropping sub-sonic at around 800 yds and your ability to even hold the load on a 6'-square target highly problematic

Doesn’t the Camp Perry 1000 yard match utilize the 173 grain M72 on occasion? And wouldn’t it be subject to the same types of ballistic problems your are addressing here in you comment? If so, why would they use it?

[John Kepler]

[

What is you issue, my goodness?!?! Personal attack after personal attack, gezz, let it go...

Sir, it wasn't a "personal attack", it was simply an observation and competent evaluation based on shooting and coaching Long Range for a lot of years. That you don't like the evaluation doesn't make it any less valid.

But, since you continually push the issue, I would love to go head to head with you with open sights, using the same rifle and the same loads.

That would be like arguing with an idiot...they drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience! In case you missed it....your loads SUCK! I quit being dumb enough to shoot 168's at 1000 yds 20 years ago...a pity you aren't wise enough to do like-wise. BTW, THAT'S what a "personal attack" from me looks like!

But hey, even with your idiotic set-up, sure, but you wouldn't be all that happy at the end of the day! BTW, I don't shoot off a bench, I don't shoot with any kind of artificial support, and I don't shoot with a scope....no one in Long Range Service Rifle does.

I continually attempt to draw you back to topic yet you post remarks like the one above. Again, the issue here is and has always been, am I shooting at 1,000 yards or have I created a fraudulent video.

A fraudulent video....I really can't say, but I do have doubts. A video displaying considerable ineptitude attempting to masquerade as competence...absolutely! My 17 year-old son, a real Long Range shooter himself, found your video of 6 misses out of 8 shots hysterical...he didn't shoot that bad his very first time at 1000 yds with a Garand, and was still embarrassed by it...worked his *** off to make sure he never shot that bad again.....and you made a video of your train-wreck and posted it on YouTube like you actually did something important! Remember....you wanted this here!

I was told by others that this kind of obfuscatory ranting was something you have a bit of a "name" for over on YouTube...a pity you decided to bring it here.

[John Kepler]

Doesn’t the Camp Perry 1000 yard match utilize the 173 grain M72 on occasion?

Not in the last 30 years and change which is as far back as I go...probably not before then! M72 was never any comp-shooter's favorite load! M118LR does fairly well out of M14's...but that's a 175 SMK VLD load.

And wouldn’t it be subject to the same types of ballistic problems your are addressing here in you comment?

Yep! Which is why no one shot it!

If so, why would they use it?

Simple...they don't. In fact about the only .30 cals you'll see shooting ANY Long Range are Service Rifles, and most of them are AR's shooting .223 (betcha didn't see THAT one coming!)!

[Badger]

WOW!! Beautiful setup there!! I’m slowly drawing my wife into shooting… she will go out occasionally so long as we’re not out very long, I feel she will come around in time…

I’m just curious, what was the elevation of the location where this shooting took place. I’m trying to show that while a 168 may become unstable at altitudes close to sea-level, (at 1,000 yards) they do not destabilize as quickly at higher elevations. All my long range shooting is above 3,500 feet elevation, and the wood that is mounted behind the metal plate has not shown any key holing effects.
Thanks!

Thanks... be careful what you wish for, as she shoots better than I do.

44.8303°N 78.6899°W
315 meters
1033.5 feet

Milcun Marksmanship Complex

Regards,
Badger

[mdoerner]

The issue has devolved into perceptions/expectations of what constitutes an accurate rifle/load at 1000 yds. Your plate is roughly an NRA LR Target 10-ring. With the Swiss, you were hitting 2 out of 6 for 33%....with the scoped Garand you shot 2 out of 8 for 25%. Last year at Camp Perry, to make the shoot-off in Service Rifle took a 193-14X, or 96.5% with high x-count (and it wasn't enough to win the sausage!). Sure....you can shoot 33% with a load that's dropping sub-sonic....but you almost certainly can't shoot 80% (which will buy you an NRA LR "Marksman" classification....the lowest classification BTW) with it! If 1 outta 3 is your criteria....then you are a steely-eyed hardholder with a perfect rifle/load....if your criteria runs to something a bit more in line with current competition standards, then it isn't. Set the bar low enough, and anything looks good! Frankly, and with nothing pejorative intended, the results on target shown in your video is about what I'd expect out of a LR Novice in benign conditions with a bad load.

PS-In your Swiss...try a 178 gr Hornady A-Max on top of 44.5 gr of Vihtavuori N550...then you'll see what the rifle is REALLY capable of (all the usual loading caveats apply)!

We are plinking at a steel plate here, right? The X-Ring argument is overkill for this discussion, because there is no 9-ring, 8-ring, etc to see where the remaining rounds went, if they've keyholed, etc. Also, we're not shooting match positions here are we? This is not a timed event.

I would think the load you've stated is not very shoulder friendly, and misses the point of plinking with whatever loads he had on hand at the time.

Besides, if you have a load that you KNOW goes out to 1000 yards, how can you brag about hitting a target at 1000 yards with a less than optimal load?

Mike Doerner

[Badger]

Hi John ..

Please .... enough ....

You've made your point that in your opinion Mag30th is an amateur and doesn't possess either the scientific background or experience you, or apparently now your son possess, in order to be taken seriously.

By innuendo, you've also borderline accused him of being a fraud ....

Again, please, you've made your point and I think the readers here are mature enough to draw their own conclusions based upon the content.

Personally, I don't know why anyone would go to all the trouble to want to fake and create complicated videos about shooting these distances, considering his point as stated was not about how good he is, but rather simply a demonstration of a very old piece of firearm history.

I would hate to have to delete posts and lock this thread, so please let's everyone discuss the issue, not making it personal.

Thanks for any consideration...

Regards,
Badger

[Badger]

The ammunition used in for that shot was standard Federal Match .308 168 gr with a chronographed zeroing performance of 2756 FPS and an SD (standard deviation) of 10.

We noticed that at 1,000 meters shooting at a 4 foot target getting groups of about 11", she was seeing several "key holed" hits in the paper, indicating a tumbling round. At 900 meters there were less of those and at 800 meters we saw none, so I don't know if that helps this discussion.

A follow up ....

I forgot to mention that she had a few boxes of Federal Match .308 155gr which is no longer manufactured or sold.

Using the same rifle, range and wind conditions, she fired lots of that ammunition at the same 4 foot target at 1,000 meters (1,100 yards approx) and her groups were consistently less than 12".

However, perhaps more germane to this discussion was the fact NONE of the 50+ rounds of 155gr she fired "key holed" like the 168gr Federal ammo did. All were clean well defined holes and apparently remained stable right to the target.

BTW, just for clarity of authenticity, the instructors sitting in the chair and heard in the backgrpound are Keith Cunnigham and Linda Miller (click here), who coach and take the Canadian team to Bisley.

Regards,
Badger