WW1 'Periscope Prism company' sniper scope???

[lmg15]

Promo, many thanks for that - very much appreciated. I am away from my main non-cloud computer, but as I recall:
Aldis scopes
1. Model such as No.1, 2, 3 or 4
2. date
3. serial number of scope on the ocular cone for No.1, 2 and 3 models.
4. serial number and date on the objective lens group for No.4 scopes
5. rifle serial number engraved on the tube
6. whether fitted with standard objective lens group, or windage prism group
7. style of elevation turret. No,1 and 2 are low and flat, No.3 and 4 higher.
8. Which way the set screw is pointing - forwards or rearwards. This may not mean much.
9. Graduation range on the elevation drum (based on Rogers comments above)
10, mounting system, eg, Purdey, H&H, PPC, etc. Sometimes a bare scope can give an indication of what mounts used to be on it.
11. Case details. There was a pretty standard leather case with rifle serial number and broad arrow for most Aldis scopes, but the overbore type of 1918 must have used a broader case to accommodate the longer claw mounts.


Sometimes the scopes can be a bit of a mix, as major component groups were interchangeable to varying degrees across all four models.

My recollection of the PPC scopes list headings is a bit shabby, but I will have to get back to the forum on that.

Thanks again for your kind offer. Hopefully some patterns will emerge for everyone's enlightenment. ATB, Damien

[Roger Payne]

I'd better try & have a rummage tomorrow....!

[Surpmil]

IIRC the decision to mount the Aldis No.2/3 that had the deflection adjustment prisms in PPCo. mounts is in the minutes of the Small Arms Committee and so can be dated.

I don't know if the PRO at Kew holds all of those minutes, but perhaps the "Royal Armouries" at Leeds has copies or some of them?

Many years ago I spent a little time at Kew and came away with the impression that there was surprisingly little info in the S.A.C. minutes of 1914-18 on these matters - there was perhaps a sub-committee that handled most of the details - I feel pretty sure I have sen a reference to that somewhere.

The PPCo. mount was far simpler than the Purdey & H&H mounts and thus vastly cheaper; any little shop with a shaper, a small mill and a drill press could have made them.

Whether they were fitted using jigs to achieve collimation we'll probably never know, but they certainly could have been given that large female dovetail, and the fact that the plate over the "muzzle end" of it is just screwed on. It would have been easy enough to make the final cut in the dovetail while the barrelled action was held in a collimated jig, as was done with the No.4(T)., but the tool marks in the dovetails don't suggest that(?)

There was a version of the PPCo. with graduations for MkVI ammo, so one could presumably be fairly certain that those were earlier fittings to CLLE rifles, and thus their other characteristics could be to some extent dated by extension?

All in all, it was a poor choice. Hesketh-Pritchard I think referred to it as a type that should never have been accepted for service.

The windage capstans are a recipe for trouble: over-tightened or under-tightened on one side or the other they would be liable to work loose with firing, or strip their threads. There was no tiny "capstan bar" provided to adjust them AFAWK, and the result must have been either fingers (inadequate) or pliers, or a safety pin or needle from the sewing kit. And of course the only seal around the capstan heads or plates was metal to metal.

Hopefully the pea-brains who ordered the breaking up of the Aldis-SMLE rifles after WWI were still around to rue their folly in 1939/40.

I see one of these photos is an Aldis No.2 in PPCo. mounts, which is odd, but may be a post war fitting or a scope that was modified with the earlier objective cell at some point.

A Feuss Scharfstellung showing presumably the ancestry of the capstans. Feuss seems to have dropped the idea fairly quickly - it was not really needed with windage adjustable claw mounts after all.

There is an even more rare and mysterious side mount for the Aldis, but so far only one known example has surfaced, and that without the base.

I don't know when the German troops had their pickelhaubes sent back to the bases, but presumably not before the last photo was taken, which might help to date it, and the mounts (right hand soldier appears to have an Aldis in PPCo. mounts)

[rgg_7]

Is the "2637" number on the PPC0 Scope Bracket the rifle number? or scope number? If a rifle number what year would it be?

Roger - what's the status of the scope base?

Ron (Canada)

[Roger Payne]

Hello Ron,
Yes, that's the rifle serial number. It's difficult to date from serials with the SMLE but all rifles that I & just about everyone else I've discussed the subject with have seen, have been of 1915 or 1916 manufacture, usually EFD but BSA examples too**. I have never heard of a LSA conversion, but this my just be a reflection of the smaller production total of LSA & the tiny survival rate of WW1 SMLE snipers anyway. I have just two totally genuine WW1 SMLE snipers & both are EFD 1916 Mk3*'s.

The PPCo mount bases are still pending Ron. I will try chasing the fellow up in the next week or so.

Evening surpmil! A fascinating read. I genuinely am unsure about these scopes graduated for Mk6 ball........the story may well be that they were fitted to long rifles or suchlike, but I have also wondered if they could have been regraduated post WW1 for civilian use, as there would presumably have been Mk6 ammo around still in fair quantities. Having said that I really can't make up my mind. You may well be right. I have both a PPCo & an Aldis so marked.......so perhaps their only relative scarcity is in itself supportive of a military contract with reasonable quantities having been produced???

There's one thing about this WW1 sniping subject.........it offers plenty of opportunities to engage in conjecture!

I have the minutes that you describe surpmil........I'll see if I can find them & copy them to the forum. There may be a few more sad puppies like us that would find them interesting!

** I mean the main contract rifles that were produced in quantity such as PPCo, Aldis/Purdey, Aldis/H&H & WA5/Whiteheads. The early small volume sniping equipments show much more variation; there is a 1912 rifle set up with Evans mounts in the NFC at Leeds, for example. Being early it is not surprising that a pre WW1 rifle was used as the scope platform.

[Surpmil]

Roger, I would doubt the MkVI marking is post war only because most re-worked WWI scopes seem to have had their service markings replaced by whatever gunsmiths refitted them and rarely exceed 2-400 yard IIRC(?). And of course these MkVI graduated scopes seem to be entirely original and marked to 600 yards or more.

As for there being lots of MkVI around, I don't know; my guess would be that it was mostly used up for training if not in service in the earlier part of the war.

If you have an Aldis thus marked as well, then I would say that points pretty strongly to CLLE - what sort of mounts though?

Perhaps the CLLE and other "Long Lees" were actually thought of a bit later in the process when it may have been difficult to get SMLE's released? The authorities were quite dismissive of such "distractions" from "proper" military efforts after all.

It would be too much to hope that they did what would have made sense: fit the earlier and heavier barrels cut down to SMLE's and issue the 215 grain round nose ammo for sniping.

Would be interesting to see what the Minutes say, so thanks for that. As for its larger significance, I think any study of the evolution of a military technology can tell a good deal about the process that occurs in most cases, and that in turn can tell a good deal about much larger matters. Matchbooks, coasters or small squares of coloured paper with ink stains on them - now that surely is sad!

[lmg15]

More rich veins of discussion!
For my tuppence worth, I have never seen any scopes marked for MNk.VI ball, but as far as I can make out, the whole Gallipoli campaign was fought on Mk.VI ammo, as well as the early campaigns such as Kut and Egypt / Palestine and Mesopotamia. Certainly the Gallipoli / Suvla Bay campaigns used snipers as enthusiastically as anywhere else, but mainly using SMLE Mk.IIIs with range sights (such as Mues) or just plain iron sights. Billy Sing was renowned for his sniping prowess and used a spotter with a spotting scope (probably ex signals issue).

My understanding is that Mk.VI was used on the Western Front as well, but mainly by second echelon rifle users such as ASC and Artillery. A couple of SMLE Mk.IIs have turned up marked to Western Front artillery units still sighted in Mk.VI. To what extent the BEF of 1914 rushed to France with Mk.VI sighted rifles I don't know, but I have seen the odd reference to this.

Certainly by the time the ANZAC troops returned to Egypt in late 1915 with their Mk.VI sighted rifles, they exchanged them all for new UK production sighted in Mk,VII so that their debut on the Western Front in mid 1916 would 'fit in' logistically.

The Aldis on PPC mount without the windage prism is unexpected, as that would demand a very high degree of precision in the mounting of scope to rifle. Not impossible, but not very convenient either, as it would demand that the sniper memorise the offset for various ranges. I have seen at least six of the Aldis / PPC scopes (four in the flesh), being 3 x No.3s and 3 x No.4 - all having the deflection prism and 1916 scope manufacture dates.
Attachment 108135Attachment 108136Attachment 108135Attachment 108136

Although I had never seen any of the Aldis scope in this configuration until the last three years or so, the number that have come out of the woodwork seems to rank them with the Purdeys, H&H and standard PPC scopes. This may be some sort of statistical anomaly, but there (to my own surprise) it is...

Regarding PPC scopes, I have had a thorough look at mine and cannot find a scope serial number anywhere. The only number appears to be the rile number inscribed on one of the mounting rings, and on the leather case. Hence, it will be difficult to get a good chronology of the PPC scope production if that is the case with all PPC scopes. I have taken details of scopes I have seen in collections and on ebay, etc, and there is a preponderance of Enfield serial numbers in the S, T, U, V and Y range, with an 'H' out on its lonesome. My data on Enfield production in the war years is sketchy. I was very straight forward and linear from 1907 to 1914 where the serial numbers track production numbers OK, but when production really ramped up during WW1, Enfield was cycling through its four digit A to Z prefixes three times a year (ie, there could be three Enfield Rifles with the same date and serial number produced in a given year), so it gets difficult to track runs of rifles fitted with scopes, or attach much meaning to them on the physical evidence that remains.

ATB, D.

[Roger Payne]

Hello everyone! Damien, I have just sent you a little info on four Aldis scopes that were readily to hand. I'll get info on others for you as soon as I can. Bear with me a little........I haven't been as busy as I am now since I took early retirement!

Last night I managed to grab a moment & get a couple of photo's of my PPCo with 'wrap around' range drum saddle. I'll try to get a few of the scopes with range drums marked for Mk6 ball, in due course. The enlarged objective housing is I think a post war civvy mod. The tube has been reblued but the PPCo markings are in the usual place & in the usual style. I have seen only three or four of these, ever, but the saddle appears to be of the same design in all.

[Surpmil]

....Although I had never seen any of the Aldis scope in this configuration until the last three years or so, the number that have come out of the woodwork seems to rank them with the Purdeys, H&H and standard PPC scopes. This may be some sort of statistical anomaly, but there (to my own surprise) it is....
ATB, D.

That perhaps is not so surprising since these came later to the field than the Purdey & H&H mounts and so had a better chance of surviving service.

A Purdey or H&H fitting that wore out its barrel or developed some other problems was likely sent back to them as being beyond the skills of armourers to rectify. In fact I believe the rifle number changes we see on some of their scopes appear to have been done in the same style and manner, suggesting the same firm perhaps. (Didn't H-P comment that an SMLE might only keep its best accuracy for 600 rounds or so?)

If the PPCo. dovetails were more or less interchangeable, that sort of work may been done in France for them. Do the renumbers we see support that, and do the dovetails mate-up consistently? The very nature of the design is such that if the angles are consistent, the actual depth of the dovetailed parts can vary a bit as spring travel should provide for that.

....Last night I managed to grab a moment & get a couple of photo's of my PPCo with 'wrap around' range drum saddle. I'll try to get a few of the scopes with range drums marked for Mk6 ball, in due course. The enlarged objective housing is I think a post war civvy mod. The tube has been reblued but the PPCo markings are in the usual place & in the usual style. I have seen only three or four of these, ever, but the saddle appears to be of the same design in all.

There's something screwy with the "Delete Post" feature; just cost me a post I'll try and recreate. Nor does the selective quote feature seem to work.

Interesting scope Roger.

Points:

1. Can't see any reason for sleeve except to use a drum saddle made for a larger tube diameter.
2. Knurling missing from capstans: new ones made to compensate for thickness of sleeve?
3. Tube has the screw holes for the typical PPCo. mount (as you of course know) Surplus parts or a rework of scope that saw service?
4. Someone with some skills, tools and parts at work there, presumably before the war? That said, we know Aldis was trying in the 50s if not 60s to flog that utterly obsolete lump they made up with bits and bobs left over from their pre-war production; assuming they made the Irish contract No.4 pattern scopes from new, which I rather doubt. In which case it was mostly parts left over from 1919 and before; and look at the price!

[lmg15]

Interesting observations Surpmil re PPC scope.

I was wondering if it was a manufacturing expedient that avoided the need for the two brass pads under the windage screws? This effectively becomes a one piece sleeve with the added bonus of giving an extra couple of mm elevation travel for the crosshairs.

However, when all else fails, I had a look in The British Sniper pp.42 - 43. According to the CISA blueprint, the pre- Feb 1916 scopes used the wrap-around arrangement, (as per Roger's previous comment) which was substituted thereafter by the two brass pads under the windage screws labelled "O.C. END IMPROVEMENTS. INCORPORATED SUBSEQUENTLY TO FEB 1ST 1916. I have to say that I did a double take on the Feb 1916 date. My dodgy eyesight, small print and preconceived notions made me read that as Feb 1915 initially, but IDS then says it again in plain English on p.43.

The dovetail patent was dated 24 Feb 1915, so at most a year's worth of production before the improvements were incorporated. Going to pp.62-63, the first orders for PPC are 8 April 1915 with 1,120 ordered and an order for 4,000 on 28 Oct 1915. There is a 3 month gap in the records IDS found, so the figures become a bit rubbery. Is that 1220 + 4000 + 5220, or were some of the scopes from the October 1915 order incorporating some of the earlier order? Looks like it with total PPC scope deliveries being 4830.

Another point of rubbery-ness in the figures is that the date ordered does not reflect the date delivered, so many of the scopes may have been delivered after Feb 1916 for all I know, thereby incorporating the post Feb 1916 modifications. Then again, most of the scopes made in 1915 may have had the modifications and CISA did not note the mods until later. This would not be the first time that the configuration paperwork caught up with the fielded item well after the event (many LoC examples...)

Roger, were the other scopes in this configuration with out the dovetail / with the larger objective group?

ATB, D.

---------- Post added at 09:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:54 AM ----------

PS - p.63 has a list of the Enfield Pattern Room collection referring to PPCo solid drum and PPCo split drum scopes on single PPCo mounts.