P14/P17 lower and upper handguard.

[Mk VII]

Flying10uk-- I am surprised that the British purchasing commission would let them get away with that. US Ordnance insisted on a commonality of parts for the M1917.

--fjruple

We should remember that the British were dealing with each factory on a commercial basis and there was no incentive for each facility to ensure interchangeability or cooperation or revelation of trade secrets. The British thought they needed the guns a lot more than the manufacturers needed their business (and indeed Winchester ended up making a loss on their British contracts, which made them reluctant to treat with Britain again in the next war.)

Once Uncle Sam was paying the bills they were forced to start paying closer attention to interchangeability. But it remained problematic.
C.S. Ferris's United States Rifle Model of 1917 shows photos of Winchester and Remington front h/g's with the different length of the metal clip and the placement of the rivets.

[fjruple]

We should remember that the British were dealing with each factory on a commercial basis and there was no incentive for each facility to ensure interchangeability or cooperation or revelation of trade secrets. The British thought they needed the guns a lot more than the manufacturers needed their business (and indeed Winchester ended up making a loss on their British contracts, which made them reluctant to treat with Britain again in the next war.)

I don't know if that is quite true. Winchester was caught by the British Purchasing Commission spending their money on other commercial products to include new buildings not related to the P14 production. Today we would call that Contractor fraud. I could see the British Purchasing Commission in WWII not being to thrilled at asking Winchester to produce war material for them after what happened in WWI. Additionally the Russians had no problem getting what they wanted when it came to the production of the Mosin-Nagant rifle in the US.

Once Uncle Sam was paying the bills they were forced to start paying closer attention to interchangeability. But it remained problematic.
C.S. Ferris's United States Rifle Model of 1917 shows photos of Winchester and Remington front h/g's with the different length of the metal clip and the placement of the rivets.

Winchester has always been a problem child with the M1917 production. They started off by producing 10,000 M1917 rifle of their design and not to any US government specification. General Pershing insisted that no Winchester M1917s be shipped to the AEF due to the lack of compatiblity. In WWII, Winchester always dragged their feet in making updated changes to the M1 they were producing. I could never understand why collectors always preferred the Winchester over the Springfield Armory produced guns. I always found the Winchester's to be poorly finished compared to the Springfield Armory M1s.

--fjruple

[Flying10uk]

I think that parts made for the SMLE by the various manufacturers were generally interchangeable, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. It seems illogical for the P14 to not be the same with regards to parts interchangeability between the 3 manufacturers. It must have caused headaches just stocking the right spare parts with some parts having to be kept in duplicate or even triplicate from each of the manufacturers. My experience of store-men is that they tend to be temperamental types at the best of times. One can imagine having to take a part back to the stores and trying to explain to an irate store-man that the part he has just given you is wrong because it's made by the wrong company even though the actual part itself is the correct part.

[browningautorifle]

One can imagine having to take a part back

That's where hand fitting goes into effect.

[fjruple]

I think that parts made for the SMLE by the various manufacturers were generally interchangeable, please correct me if I'm wrong on this. It seems illogical for the P14 to not be the same with regards to parts interchangeability between the 3 manufacturers. It must have caused headaches just stocking the right spare parts with some parts having to be kept in duplicate or even triplicate from each of the manufacturers. My experience of store-men is that they tend to be temperamental types at the best of times. One can imagine having to take a part back to the stores and trying to explain to an irate store-man that the part he has just given you is wrong because it's made by the wrong company even though the actual part itself is the correct part.

Unfortunately that quite true, some parts of the SMLE and M1917 are compatible with the P14s. The parts that are compatible are like the piling or stacking swivel, front and rear sling swivel, front sight blades, etc. for the SMLE The trigger groups, the safety catch parts (excluding the early Winchester P14), nose cap and screw, Buttplate assemblies, lower barrel band, front handguard, and butt swivel backet and screw. The parts that are NOT compatible between P14 manufacturers are barrels, breech bolt and plug, rear sight slide, cocking piece, extractor ring, firing pin, front sight band, magazine bottom plate, magazine case or box, triggerguard, fore-end tie bolt (R & W interchangeable, not E), locking lug cover plate R & E interchangeable, not W), Lower band stop pin (R & E interchangeable, not W) and Magazine platform (R & E interchangeable, not W). As Jim states a lot of hand fitting is required. You also have to bear in mind there were at least six different rifle between the two different MKs of the P14. I did not realize how bad the interchangeablity was until I started to assemble parts for the three manufacturers.

--fjruple

[Vincent]

The bottom picture shows a large gap at the right. Is that because it’s a P14 in a P17 stock?

[Flying10uk]

I don't know if this helps, vincent? It may sort of half answer your question in a round about way. I have a known P14 stock which I've marked as such and a Model 1917 stock which I tend to call P17 out of habit and so have marked it as such also. The floor plate came with a U.K. deactivated Winchester P14 in P17 stock but I believe the floor plate to be P14 although I haven't noticed any markings on it. As can be seen there is much greater clearance and in my opinion an excess clearance with the floor plate in the P17 stock. The plan is to build up a complete and accurate deactivated Winchester P14 when all the missing parts have been sourced and time permits.

[fjruple]

Vincent -- The m1917 stock should be easily identified with the Eagle inspection marks and the letters W, E and R stamped on the front end unless the stock was made as part of the WWII rebuild program. The appropriate arsenal should be on the left side just in front of the pistol grip of the stock. Of course this does not take into account the stocks which were never used and the post WWII commercial copies made by Boyds.

--fjruple

[Vincent]

As can be seen there is much greater clearance and in my opinion an excess clearance with the floor plate in the P17 stock.

Yes. I think you will see it pulled toward the rear of the hole when you tighten the screws.

[Flying10uk]

Interestingly, the P17 stock seems a much better quality hardwood than the P14 stock which feels significantly lighter.