Will the AR-15 be fondly remembered like the Garand?

[polska]

The AR-15 is more accurate and a better platform but unless your chasing leg points . Who cares!When I started competative shooting almost 30 years ago I would have jumped for a spacegun if they had them back then.But the rifle has no panache.It may be a better hammer but it's just a hunk of plastic and aluminum like everything else made in the 21st century, a throwaway item.
I shot my league match yesterday a noticed out of 35 shooters about half were shooting spaceguns the other half were shooting match AR's, two were shooting M1-A's ,one M1 and one crazy guy shooting an 03-A3.(That would be me).It is a 52rd match and we can only go out to 300yds. so I figure I can be competative.I shot a 476, did the spaceguns and ar's out shot me,yes most of them ,but I get the biggest satisfaction from my score and I enjoyed myself more.I also noticed that the guy with the M1 and I were the only ones who cleaned their barrels or at least put a patch threw them .The other shooters just threw their plastic guns into there cases like it was a cell phone or mp3 player,No love!
But don't go by me .I drive my '72 vette to the matches and it is a pig on gas the ride is bumpy like a jeep,the roof leaks and it only has an am-fm radio with crappy speakers and hardly any room for my shooting gear.It still attracts more attention then the latest best cars.
Crap will always be crap and a classic will always be remembered fondly.

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[John Kepler]

And my 66 Buick Wildcat 425 and/or 67 Corvair Monza Convertible will usually "out-draw" your Vette....does that make them "better"? I've gone "retro" from time to time for my own reasons....but it doesn't change the fact that I shoot lower scores with the "old iron" than with the "...hunk of plastic and aluminum". For me, a "pretty" target beats a "pretty" rifle, hands down...each and every time. YMMV!

BTW, why the hell would you or anyone else clean your rifle at the range? That's like trying to wash your clothes in a cesspool!

[Bob Womack]

Mmmm.... Boys will be boys and always argue about the size and value of their toys.

In avocational shooting, there's room for aesthetics and absolute accuracy. If your gig is competition, no problem - go for the rocket rifle and its greater accuracy. They do have their own cache'. If you like furniture and how a classic rifle "groks"*, go for another era.

We are allowed differences in taste and emphasis. We are not the Borg.

Bob

* grok: to understand intuitively or by empathy; to establish rapport with

[John Kepler]

In avocational shooting, there's room for aesthetics and absolute accuracy. If your gig is competition, no problem - go for the rocket rifle and its greater accuracy. They do have their own cache'.

\

No question....and it's completely possible to do both depending on the "hat" you choose to wear at any given moment. But the context of this thread asks the question of WHETHER the AR/M16 will be "...fondly remembered like the Garand". At that point, the context of the question dictates the "hat" being worn.

Based on conversations with my son and his "battle-buddies", my own experience, and my "non-emo" analysis, the answer is yes, and that it's already happening. There is a reservoir of "discontent" with the M16 that is largely confined to people of a given age....a discontent that vets from later era's largely do not share. For some, this dichotomy is simply unacceptable, they fail to acknowledge that any engineering design evolves, and that the rifle they didn't like bears about as much relationship to what is currently being used as the "old iron" they wax so nostalgic over. I had my own issues with the AR back in the day...I got over them, or rather the rifle evolved beyond them.

My most telling example in favor of the AR? As a firearms instructor, my students universally learn to shoot better, faster with the AR than ANY other HP/centerfire platform I've seen, and there really isn't a close second. That factoid alone says volumes!

With all of this said....this is subjective speculation where people of otherwise very similar minds can disagree rather violently depending on the "base assumptions" they choose to make. Also, it isn't a "zero-sum" game...one can quite easily occupy both positions and still function!

[M1Tommy]

\
.........
My most telling example in favor of the AR? As a firearms instructor, my students universally learn to shoot better, faster with the AR than ANY other HP/centerfire platform I've seen, and there really isn't a close second. That factoid alone says volumes!
.......

John, I have a slightly OT question from one who is fairly AR-ignorant (recently acquired my first lower, a complete lower and handful of mags from a horse trade for an old ummm.. john-boat ).

Do you believe that lessening of the learning curve slope may be more from the cartridge than from the rifle's ergonomics?

Heck another question as you hear tales from 'over there' first hand;
Has the shorter barrel lengths (16" and less in vogue nowadays it seems) reduced the round's effectiveness?
Tommy

[John Kepler]

J
Do you believe that lessening of the learning curve slope may be more from the cartridge than from the rifle's ergonomics?

Truthfully, I think it's both. First reaction from novices shooting the AR for the first time with it's "big bang" and no appreciable recoil is "WOW"! They go from being apprehensive, somewhat intimidated by the entire concept of shooting an HP rifle, to being "best-buds" with the rifle after that first shot, and it propagates from there.

Heck another question as you hear tales from 'over there' first hand;
Has the shorter barrel lengths (16" and less in vogue nowadays it seems) reduced the round's effectiveness?
Tommy

My son very pointedly kept his trusty A2 in Iraq, mainly because he wasn't too impressed with the M4 in Afghanistan. If you're working urban areas and are in and out of vehicles....you like the M4. If you're running convoy escort like my son...you want the extra punch and reach of the A2/A3. One size DOESN'T fit all!

[TDH]

Mmmm.... Boys will be boys and always argue about the size and value of their toys.

In avocational shooting, there's room for aesthetics and absolute accuracy. If your gig is competition, no problem - go for the rocket rifle and its greater accuracy. They do have their own cache'. If you like furniture and how a classic rifle "groks"*, go for another era.

We are allowed differences in taste and emphasis. We are not the Borg.

Bob

* grok: to understand intuitively or by empathy; to establish rapport with

And yes I do GROK VMS

[John Kepler]

James is home and in school finishing his engineering degree...he left most of the hearing in his left ear, 30% in his right, and full mobility of his right hip in Iraq...IED's are a b!tch!

[polska]

John,yes your classic auto's would draw attention,just as a GI 45 or M1 carbine or 98k because they are all classics.You prove my point.
Why would I clean a rifle at the range? Stupid question.I guess you were not trained proberly.How many have gone home and do not clean their rifle till the next day or forget until the next shooting match.I've seen it many times.
And as far as the old M16 being different than the new breed. What's the difference? A new barrel, different sights and different handguard.
Everything else is still interchangeable

[John Kepler]

John,yes your classic auto's would draw attention,just as a GI 45 or M1 carbine or 98k because they are all classics.You prove my point.

Pull in with a brand-new Ferrari and park it between your Vette and my Buick. and we'd be totally ignored! Pull out your "old iron"....I'll be there with my RPA Palma rifle....guess what most people are going to want to look at! "New" and "interesting" aren't mutually exclusive!

Why would I clean a rifle at the range? Stupid question.I guess you were not trained proberly

You've never met my father or grandfather, so you have little basis for your attempted insults.

How many have gone home and do not clean their rifle till the next day or forget until the next shooting match.I've seen it many times.

NEVER by me! You clean firearms in a CONTROLLED environment whenever possible. That way you do an effective, thorough job without b!tching anything up, losing parts, or accumulating dirt and grit in things you are trying to get clean. Like I said the first time, cleaning at the range if you have alternatives is like washing your clothes in a cesspool!

And as far as the old M16 being different than the new breed. What's the difference? A new barrel, different sights and different handguard. Everything else is still interchangeable

Different upper receiver, TOTALLY different trigger....yep, other than the barrel, receiver, trigger, most of the stock, and sights....they's 'zactly the same!