Drill Purpose Rifle L59A1 UK Legal Status

[Mk VII]

I suspect we've not the last of the fall-out from the Shepherd case. They hated losing that one (indeed the BBC accidentally put out the pre-prepared report of his conviction, together with a quote from the detective in charge about what a good result it was) and I think the law on s.58 antiques will change to make what he was doing illegal again.

[Beerhunter]

I think the law on s.58 antiques will change to make what he was doing illegal again.

I have tried to find out exactly was he was doing by trawling through the press reports - and failed. Do you know what the disagreement was between him and the Met? I assumed that it was Section 58 and have further assumed that is was based on the word antique? But some meat around my surmise would be nice - links?

[Peter Laidler]

Found not guilty and still hasn't got his property back! What on earth are his legal team playing at? What about an approach to the Judge in Chambers or a complaint of neglect of duty against the Chief Constable. That'd get things moving..... or......... there are plenty of avenues

[Kev G]

Can someone answer my probably nieve question please ?

If they are considered a firearm can you have one put on an open slot on your ticket ?
Would they pass proof ?
If not surely option 1 doesn't apply ?
If this is the case what is there classification ?

Cheers

[Peter Laidler]

KG. A real UK MoD spec L59A1 neither would nor could ever pass proof. It is totally inert. Next time you are passing, pop in and I'll show you a few. I think that a few owners of such beasts have an old ex CCF No4-DP this is 'slightly' DP and not UK MoDspec L59 DP and marked DRILL RIFLE L59A1. No offence, but I was even told of a chrome one! Chrome it might be, but an L59, it ain't.

There was also an RAF DP No4. But the less said about those the better

Is anyone out there interested in seeing the whole thing in pictures?

[Beerhunter]

Can someone answer my probably nieve question please ?

If they are considered a firearm can you have one put on an open slot on your ticket ?
Would they pass proof ?
If not surely option 1 doesn't apply ?
If this is the case what is there classification ?

It is an offence to sell an unproofed firearm. Anyone selling an L59 as a Section 1 Firearm would, in my opinion, be guilty of an offence because it would not be proofed for the reason that it could not pass proof. However no Proof doesn't mean that it ceases to be a Firearm. 'Out of proof' firearms turn up all the time and the Police take the view (backed up by the courts) that proofed or unproofed they are still firearms. For example a Webley MkVI with only military proofs may not be sold but is a still a firearm.

If an L59 was offered for Proof, the Proof House MAY issue a Certificate stating that the was "The arm is an Antique or collectors piece, which is not intended to be fired, is unlikely to withstand the proof test and might be severely damaged if subjected to proof." I quote from such a certificate.

Some have claimed that such a certificate unquestionably puts the firearm in question into Section 58.

So someone needs to put an L59 forward for proof, get the Certificate and then convince ACPO and/or the courts.

[Simon P]

KG. A real UK MoD spec L59A1 neither would nor could ever pass proof. It is totally inert. Next time you are passing, pop in and I'll show you a few. I think that a few owners of such beasts have an old ex CCF No4-DP this is 'slightly' DP and not UK MoDspec L59 DP and marked DRILL RIFLE L59A1. No offence, but I was even told of a chrome one! Chrome it might be, but an L59, it ain't.

There was also an RAF DP No4. But the less said about those the better

Is anyone out there interested in seeing the whole thing in pictures?

"Pictures" would be a great idea at this stage especially of the modifications which make a legitimate L95A1.

I believe the gears are in motion within the HBSA to hopefully take this forward.

[Mk VII]

I agree that in that case it would be necessary to get a Proof Exemption Certificate - if they would issue one.

[Beerhunter]

Peter Laidler's article on the L59 has convinced me that although not to the HO Approved Deactivation specification (and so cannot, in Law, benefit from that), the rifle would be incapable of being fired. I would be more than happy to buy one - if I could find one - and take on the 'authorities' over whether or not it constituted a Firearm under the Act.

I would to submit it to one of the Proof Houses for them to issue a Certificate stating that it was "an antique or collectors piece" etc.

I would keep it as a "curiosity or ornament" (1968 Firearms Act - as amended) to remind me of my time in the Cadets (Army Section of course). (Although to be fair we didn't have any DP rifles and the L59 was way after my time.)

[enfield303t]

You know it is sad to think of all the hassles honest gun owners go thru from legistlation that really never solves any problems with firearms. I do feel sorry for owners in England that have a passion for collecting and probably the only "brush" with the law has been a motor vehicle speeding infraction. Here in Canada we have spent about 2 Billion dollars on gun registration and only approximately 2% of registerd firearms have been involved in crime. Our legislation came from a Liberal Gov't years ago and I remember them telling us it would cost around 20 million dollars, well that is a long way from 2 Billion. The real scary part is when they physically moved the office of the CFC they lost approx. 450 thousand registrations. I remember meeting someone years ago who had according to the CFC no guns registered. He showed me his registration certificates and he had several legit registered guns. I guess he was one of the ones that had all their information "lost". The next problem is the lack of knowledge by many police officers about the Firearms Act, this is a problem of hiring the wrong people and hiring people that have never been associated with firarms. Many police officers couldn't identify a CZ858 from a AK 47, they look alike so they think they are the same gun. I am told when the latest gun laws were being drafted they put a group of people in a room and they looked at pictures of firearms and if they looked too dangerous they made them prohibited. Since the Conservatives have been in power in Canada they have made it much easier to "live with" the Firearms Act and hopefully we will see the end of the long gun registration soon. I write this after reading that a "dewat" gun in England may not be a dewat in the eyes of the police, to think a wonderful piece of history could be destroyed for no real reason. I do feel sorry for all of you in England with your unreasonable gun laws, I do remember many years ago owning a handbill (poster) from WW 2 asking Canadians to donate a gun to defend a British home. Ironic isn't it, you were on the verge of being invaded and didn't have guns to defend your homeland and had to come begging for Canadians to help you and we sent you Thousands of firearms. The firearms laws of the 40's must seem now to be reasonable, who knows maybe someday due to your current laws you will be asking for help again.