New No4 MKII's...consecutive serial numbers

[Frederick303]

Hate to say this as I hold Capt Laidler in the very highest regard but.......
The following records exist:

1) Initial trials procurement of 500 rifles in 1953. The record is a letter referring to an initial lot of No 4 MK II rifles and Karl Gustav M45 submachine guns to be trialed in 1953. No idea if actual trial lot occurred but a sampling of supposed Irish lot rifles indicates a number outside of the generally listed serial number lot came out of Ireland.

2) Letter stating the full procurement of rifles was 50,000 MK II rifles (with the serial number ranges some in the UF 55 A series) and that the type was entered into service in October 1954. This letter was from a colonel of the Irish army, the data from the Irish military archives.

3) Records of use that indicate the active army was equipped with these rifles from October of 1954 until ~1961 (FN-LAR replaced it) and the FCA was equipped with this type from around the fall of 1957 until replacement with the FN-LAR in 1988.

4) Recollections from a well known UK Firm involved in the inspection of these rifles, in Ireland (initial used rifle sales lot). The rifles were located in Ireland at the time of first inspection (late 1989 or early 1990).

5) Sales records from the Irish archives that indicate between 48,900 and 49,889 of these rifles were sold between 1991 and 1997. The differences relate to the quantities of No 2 MK IV riles which were sold off in the first sales lot in 1991 (5,889 rifles, of which some percentage were No 2 Mk IV rifles).

6) Records of FCA soldiers who were involved in the shipment of the rifles out of Ireland which match the time of the last sale.

7) Records from a large sporting rifle firm in Germany (Frankonia) that purchased a number of these rifles from Century Arms. These rifles were shipped out of the UK and not the US or Canada, so at least a portion of the rifles went through the UK or so this one firm indicates. This firm had both PF and UF serial number rifles in the importation lot.

8) Confirmation from Century that they did buy rifles directly from Ireland, and from the distributors that they sold too data on the importation of these rifles in the US (directly) and the secondarily; last lot (1997) was imported into Canada, then sold from there in the US around 2002

Now it may well be that these records are in some way wrong, but that is the official records that myself and other researchers have found. If so I would be very interested in knowning the exact reason these records are in error. I posted the official records of the serial number ranges on this board a year or so ago. Those records came directly from the Irish military archives.

[Peter Laidler]

If they procured 50,000 rifles, then mathematically that's in excess of about 65 FULL Infantry Battalions which is considerably more than Britain had at the time. I say no more................. except that the Irish Army is a Defence Force and Ireland has one border - and that's a few hundred miles long............

[Frederick303]

Capt. Laidler, a very good point. However a look a the stocks of rifles held by the Irish from 1939 to 1953 do not indicate the quantity figure to be that odd:

The stock figure in September of 1939 was 42,500 rifles of withich only 24,700 were first line. The only real increment in rifles in WWII was the 20,000 M1917 sold/given to Ireland in August September of 1941. Even with those rifles the Irish home guard had to requisition something like 7,000 shotguns to equip their forces in the emergency (what the Irish cal WWII) at the height of mobilization in late 1942~43

By 1953 the Irish Arm held the following stocks of small arms (approximate figures based on sales records from 1960, 1987 and 1991 to 1996):

SMLE MK III and Mk III*: ~32,000 rifles with an additional ~ 500 new barreled actions.
No 2 MK IV: between 889 and 989 rifles
SMLE MKI***: ~8,800
M1917 rifles: 19,962
P1914 (t) rifles: 119

Grand total of around 61,500 rifles, of which, (based on sales records and those known to have been dumped at sea) ~55,000 were in some manner usable as service rifles. The SMLE rifles had all been obtained between 1921 and 1925, though some number of barreled actions were purchased in the interwar period. Limited parts purchase from Britain occurred in December of 1940. The US M1917 rifles were in a non standard caliber 30-06. In short the stock was quite old and well worn.

In the period after WWII the Irish army was rather concerned that if another big conflict came along they would be ill-equipped as they were in 1939. Now as to why they would buy such numbers, in 1946 the FCA (which replaced the home guard) was set to have a cadre force of 99 rifle battalions. Each battalion was supposed to maintain at least a company strength (130 members at least) to be retained as active. If mobilized to half battalion strength they would have needed something like arms for 50 battalions. I do not know how long this plan continued, but I gather it was dropped around 1957 when the FCA was reequipped according the regular Irish army TO&E. Some references do say it was difficult to keep the FCA independent area Battalions/companies going, there was no interest by the Irish in peace time.

Also note when the Irish made the first big sale of SMLE rifles, P14 rifles and M1917 rifles they held back around 10,000 SMLE rifles, so it would seem they wanted to retain a stock of around 60,000 rifles of a common caliber, at least in 1959~60 when the sale was made. Of course the wisdom of buying 50,000 bolt action rifles in 1953~55, when the pattern was clearly dated is odd, but that is what the records show.

[Peter Laidler]

Once again, I just say this............ If they procured 50,000 brand new rifles in 1954/55, then mathematically that's in excess of about 65 FULL Infantry Battalions which is considerably more than Britain had at the time. I say no more................. except that the Irish Army is a Defence Force and Ireland has one border - and that's a few hundred miles long............ And here's something else to ponder........... No, I won't go on but read threads 14 and 17!

[Frederick303]

Interesting..


Well I for one look forward to hearing the real story. I would very much like to hear it.

[Calfed]

Finally picked up my goods from my FFL. I was able to go over the rifles carefully and everything seems as advertised...one cleaned up and unfired, one still in the wrap.






Thankfully, the import mark isn't to bad.