Reloading BP cartridges (help needed)

[Bruce_in_Oz]

The reason I ask about Teflon is that I had an interesting demonstration of its properties as a bullet lube some time back.

The difference was that the bullets in question were .357 wadcutters that had been completely coated with Teflon by the maker.

I was running a Smith and Wesson Model 52, which for the non-pistol shooters is a semi-auto, built from the ground up, to shoot .38 Special, (complete with RIMMED cases), loaded with 148gn, hollow-based wadcutters. Colt also did a similar thing on a 1911 frame for a time.

The gun was spectacularly accurate off a Ransom rest; in my paws, it was "OK".

For years I had used standard, "wax-lubed" wadcutters. Then I loaded up a bunch of same weight, but Teflon-lubed jobs.

A quick test-shoot was a little high, but grouped well. Off to a "championship" shoot that involved 90 rounds "to score"; "Service Match" in Australia.

I started getting "odd things" happening after about the third string of six: the slide was not returning as " positively" as it should.

By the end of about thirty rounds, I had to retire from the match because of constant "stoppages" ( Most service match strings are timed).

When I slinked off to the "fumble zone" to strip the beast, I discovered that my pistol was full of unburnt powder flakes. This was a worry because I was using a fairly fast propellant.

Then, one of the other (more successful) competitors came over to commiserate.

He asked me what I had loaded into the ammo and as soon as I mentioned "teflon-coated", he informed me that he had similar problems in a REVOLVER! It just took more rounds to misbehave.

It turns out that the Teflon is SO slippery, that it allows the bullets to jump a substantial distance from the flash of the primer alone. Thus, the space in which the propellant proper can burn, is significantly enlarged and, thus, the burn-rate and pressure curve go out the window and cycling gets very "interesting". Subsequent tests with the fastest propellant available, Bullseye, improved things a little, but it was still not reliable enough, so I sold it and bought a 1911 Gold Cup in .45ACP instead. Chalk and Cheese! Or is that "Lemonade and Champagne". Those were the days!!!

There are "Teflon coating kits" around, but they can involve playing with very messy stuff and perhaps some "unfriendly" chemicals; most are also designed for jacketed bullets and involve rumbling standard bullets around in a "bath" of the stuff in a BIG, vibratory case tumbler.

Stick with the tape, or "traditional" lubes, on rifle bullets.....or if you shoot a S&W 52, "traditional" lube, or these...http://www.berrysmfg.com/product-i14...___1000ct.aspx, which, of course, were not around in my time of trouble!!!

[villiers]

I graphite coat my .308 bullets. Dunno whether it makes much difference, but they look nice andc the barrel seems to llke them.

[jmoore]

I was running a Smith and Wesson Model 52

Was just doing some comparative testing of wadcutter loads last weekend. The 52-2 liked the "old style" lube the best. The K38s liked the graphited(?) Speer bullets. Berry's plated things were not in the same league with either platform for me.

A while back I got a good deal on a bunch of SPG lube sticks which is popular with the BPCR crowd. Need to try it out in the .43 Spanish Remington Lee rifle. Just have to make time to fabricate some wads.

[villiers]

All is now well! I´ve got the lube mix (beeswax & a block of white cooking fat) that sticks to the grooves. And now that the front sight blade is the correct height and over to the left, the short Werder carbine´s a joy to shoot and is more accurate than I am. So have started collecting bits and pieces (combine tool and a cartridge case, but would really like to find a complete bandolier/sling). I clean the barrel with a wet bore snake after about ten rounds but don´t think it´s really necessary. The only thing I can´t understand is how ammunition was loaded and kept, as I foiund that the grease in between the bullet and the cork disk over the compressed powder leads to contamination, even after only a short time. I load and compress the powder but only insert the bullet and the grease shortly before going to the range.

So, thanks to everyone who provided help!

Patrick

[13Echo]

Villiers,

Military loads used a hard lube disc that wouldn't melt or run in normal use. This was fine for military use but not the best for accuracy. With the large lube grooves of your bullet I would skip the lube disc or substitute a disc of just plain beeswax or just fill the bullet hollow base with beeswax. If you soak the felt disc in beeswax it would work as a lube disc and should provide a better seal to protect the powder charge if you still used a lube disc. A felt disc is porous and will not by itself provide an effective seal against lube migration. The US Army just lubed the bullet grooves with bay wax or Japan wax and didn't use a lube cookie. Long term stability of a black powder load is possible with good accuracy. Long range and silhouette shooters do it all the time. What we are doing here is relearning all the things the old timers knew and took for common knowledge that needed no explanation.

That is a really handsome rifle you have. It is a pleasure seeing such a fine old piece back in use.

Jerry Liles

[villiers]

Jerry, I tried your advice about not using the grease under the bullet, but the chamber collected crud and it got more and more difficult to insert a new round. So next I´ll try a plain beeswax disc and/or a soaked felt disc (we use a brand of manufactured felt cleaning pads that I can cut into thin discs). As of now, I can take the short Werder carbine out to 100 metres, but at three hundred it´s stuill too random.

[13Echo]

Is the chamber getting fouled or is it hard fouling in front of the chamber? Are the cases getting powder fouled on the neck or body? Have you tried using a blow tube to keep the powder fouling soft?

I'm really envious of your rifle.

Jerry Liles

[villiers]

No Jerry! You can´t have my Werder carbine!:
The crud was not on the brass cartridge, but must have been just in front, stopping the bullet from chambering (so that the trapdoor wouldn´t close). I blow into the chamber after every round before reloading. `Tis ok with enough grease, but without the grease under the bullet, it fouls up quicker. The barrel is pristine and it was shooting as fast (or faster) than the Mauser on the nearest target. It must have been an impressive weapon when it first appeared on the battlefield. I´ve got about 100 cases (from the US of A) which should last me for the duration.

Am still looking for an original Bavarian bandolier (or a replica)

[Patrick Chadwick]

The only thing I can´t understand is how ammunition was loaded and kept, as I foiund that the grease in between the bullet and the cork disk over the compressed powder leads to contamination, even after only a short time. I load and compress the powder but only insert the bullet and the grease shortly before going to the range.

My practice (derived by trial and error) is:
1) Do not compress the powder. BP-lead bullets for rifles are normally not crimped, and uncrimped greased bullets tend to creep out of the case, making the round difficult to chamber.
2) Only insert grease and bullet shortly before use - as you do.
3) Seat bullets so that there is a clear 1mm between the nose and the transition step.
4) If a wait (days, not hours) is invitable between loading and use, store the rounds nose-down.

I can confirm - having forgotten some loaded rounds after a trip abroad, and discovering them some time later - that the grease diffuses through the wad and forms a "gunge" with the powder. This proceeds to attack the inside of the case, and when I dismantled those rounds, the bright green verdigris was impressive!

I imagine that the original military rounds used a much harder lube mix, probably rather more like wax than grease, in order to achieve a reasonable storage life in hot climates.

[Patrick Chadwick]

No Jerry! You can´t have my Werder carbine!:

Because, Jerry, if he lets it go, I reckon I can get there faster than you can!

The crud was not on the brass cartridge, but must have been just in front, stopping the bullet from chambering (so that the trapdoor wouldn´t close). I blow into the chamber after every round before reloading. `Tis ok with enough grease, but without the grease under the bullet, it fouls up quicker. The barrel is pristine and it was shooting as fast (or faster) than the Mauser on the nearest target.

Guys, I have described this in detail, more than once, and do not wish to become a bore by excessive repetition. Patrick is not fighting for his life in sizzling sunshine at Rorke's Drift, but working hard to get accurate results up in the Frozen North. Sufficient grease is vital to stop the transition (more of a step than a cone) from coking up, as he has discovered, and this Patrick discovered years ago*. It's all in there in the "Argentino Rolling Block" saga.

*Make that "rediscovered". 150 years ago it was probably common knowledge among target shooters!