Possible lend lease

[Bob Seijas]

Looks like you're right, Johnny, it was not formally repealed until 1945. I have seen records of a formal act to stop sending M1s to Britain in early 1942 and shipments were halted in April. Can't find it, of course, but it's out there. I always thought that was kind of late when we were screaming for rifles after Pearl Harbor.

Information

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[Johnny Peppers]

There is a group of Colt 1911A1 pistols in the 2.27 million range which would have been manufactured in February/March 1945 time frame that were sent as Lend-Lease to England. The ones that came back were in new condition as were most of the others.

[EdG]

The theory I'm currently nursing : the location of the proof marks, whether under the op rod or on the muzzle, probably would not have involved Sam Cummings.
In 1955, I would not think that he would have enjoyed such influence with the British government or either proof house. He was relatively new to the arms business, having begun about 1953 if memory serves. Also, he did not necessarily have only the US domestic trade in mind when he started his business. I'm sure the sales of these military firearms were intended as much for or maybe more for other countries, including pre-Castro Cuba.

My thinking is that the proof laws required the proofs to be on the chamber end. Birmingham proof house, having such a long and cumbersome proof mark, probably found it difficult and tedious to stamp it there so appealed to the British proof gods to move the proofs to the muzzle when Cummings came back in 1959 or 1960 to purchase another batch of M1 Garands. I have seen what appears to be a K (1959?) and an L (1960?) on the muzzle.

Since London proof house had a simpler stamping with no date code, it would have been easier to mark the chamber end and so continued to mark the barrel on the chamber end. To date, I have not seen a London-proofed Lend Lease era rifle marked on the muzzle. Unfortunately for collectors, having no date code by London, we cannot determine when the London-marked rifles were acquired and proofed. (I have seen rifles outside of the Lend Lease period that are London- proofed on the muzzle, especially postWWII rifles and particularly several International Harvesters.)

Is it possible that London house and Birmingham house both proofed the 1955 batch of M1 Garands due to a large inventory being acquired by Cummings, but only Birmingham house was engaged to proof the later acquisitions due to smaller numbers of rifles or maybe London house being too busy doing something else? That is one guess that would account for no muzzle London proofs.

I have not yet seen the Birmingham date code F (1955) anywhere but under the op rod. And F is the only code I've seen there. No F codes on the muzzle, no K or L under the op rod.

If Cummings did ask that the proofs be marked under the op rod so that US buyers would not be turned off by them, why was the crown over BNP still stamped on the top of the receiver instead of under the op rod handle where London placed its proof stamp? And why would the later batches of rifles then be marked on the muzzle?
Of course, the proof marks were disdained and stayed that way until very, very recently. Now the Lend Lease rifles are highly sought after and the current prices have exploded!!!
The Lend Lease rifles were shunned by many collectors due to the proof marks and because they had not been issued to US military personnel. Not too many years ago, I picked up several for very low prices because so few collectors wanted them. I wish I had bought all I saw or at least all I could have afforded at that time.

[Johnny Peppers]

I agree with EdG, as once the British decided to put the U.S. made small arms on the commercial market they were sent to the proof houses in order to get them ready to sell. I have never seen any figures as to how many of the 38,000 M1 Rifles were returned to the U.S., nor how many of the almost 700,000 pistols and revolvers, but it would have been a tall order for the two proof houses as most appear to have been proofed under the 1955 proof law. The 1911A1 pistols are a mix of London and Birmingham proof houses, but over the years from what I have seen the Birmingham proofs seem to be the most common on the M1's.

The first of the 1911A1 pistols had "RELEASED BRITISH GOVT. 1952" and "NOT ENGLISH MAKE", but the 1955 proof law did away with the latter marking, and it appears the release date just went away as probably being too much trouble.

[Tom Doniphon]

Years ago I asked the Birmingham Proof House historian why the location of the proof marks was changed to the muzzle area. I don't know what his source of info was nor how deeply, if at all, he researched the issue, but his response was that it was simply easier to mark the guns near the muzzle than near the chamber area.

[browningautorifle]

it was simply easier to mark the guns near the muzzle than near the chamber area

And that's what I always figured the reason was.

[Bob Seijas]

"never seen any figures as to how many of the 38,000 M1 Rifles were returned"

Funny story about that -- in about 1980 I wrote to Interarms and asked a lot of questions, including how many they imported. I got back a letter brushing me off and saying they don't give out information. I got mad and followed up with a nastygram on Morgan Stanley letterhead and all my titles. That elicited a reply directly from a guy named Ring who evidently was the boss under Cummings. He was not impressed with my prestigious Wall Street credentials and began with, "It's obvious that you know as much about weapons importation as I know about the stock market, which is not much." He went on to say that this was all highly confidential information, and they would not answer my questions. I chuckled and invited him to visit the Stock Exchange, saying I'd be happy to show him around and further his education. I never heard from him

[AlanD]

How many of the 38001 ended up back in the States? There was a book published many years ago with a title like 'Merchants of Death', or some such - my copy is in storage at the moment. This book had a chapter on Sam Cummings and Interarms, in this it stated that he purchased 25,000 from the British Government and that these in turn were sold to Haiti, Guatemala and Indonesia. When they had the riots in Haiti a few years ago I saw MI's being fielded by the Police or Army that were completely lacking any original finish.

There is a file in the British National Archives dealing with an 'American company's' offer to by Garand rifles, I have yet to read the file.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

[WarPig1976]

I remember that picture of the Haitian fellow with the Garand, can't remember where but you are correct.

Edit> it was here.!! Garand picture of the day #12-236

[browningautorifle]

Here it is... 12-236 Garand Picture of the day - Haiti present day