The 7th cav.

[lboos]

Bob, Thanks for the kind word's. I can't think of a better hobby then collecting small parts of our Country's History.

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[lboos]

Bob, I found This pic. of Custer when he was the 7th Cav. Commander in his full dress uniform. His uniform, Helmet and award hanging down on his chest look very close to your Great Great Uncle's Uniform. Even though one's a Pvt. and the other is a LT/COL.

[45govt]

and award hanging down on his chest

What award?

[drm2m]

I must say...I have really enjoyed reading this thread.
Very informative.....albeit somewhat controversial....which adds to the interest.

David

[jon_norstog]

Part of the problem was inexperienced troops. the other part was not enough of them.

The United States Army had a vast country to police, and it had only a few men to do it with. Speaking generally of the problem in 1878, Lt. Gen. Philip Sheridan commented:

“No other nation in the world would have attempted reduction of these wild tribes and occupation of their country with less than 60,000 or 70,000 men, while the whole force employed and scattered over this enormous region . . . never numbered more than 14,000, and nearly one-third of this force has been confined to the line of the Rio Grande to protect the Mexican frontier. The consequence was that every engagement was a forlorn hope, and was attended with a loss of life unparalleled in warfare. "

The U.S. came really close to losing the Indian Wars in 1877 - the first 15-20 minutes of the Clearwater fight against the Nez Perce, before Howard pulled his troops together and got the howitzers and gatlings into the line.

All the northwest tribes were watching to see what would happen. A major US defeat would have triggered a general war against the NW tribes at first, and eventually all the tribes in the west.

[Fredtheobviouspseudonym]

I don't dispute that the other NW tribes might well have risen.

They would have lost, though.

By 1877 there were just too many Euro- and African-Americans (gotta be politically-correct these days before the PC police pull me in) in the USA for the Native Americans to win. After the War Between the States the US would not have allowed any section of what became the Lower 48 to be detached from the political control of Washington.

Between the surviving veterans of the War Between the States and the numbers of young men who grew up with stories of heroism, manhood and endurance (this was allowed in that dim benighted age) there would have been plenty of manpower AND experience needed to turn that manpower into good troops. The railroad already crossed the plains and could have brought as many troops and supplies as needed.

Basically, the last chance the Native Americans had to remain independent died with Tecumseh. And it was a slim chance then. There's only so far guts and skill will get you against a determined enemy with vastly superior numbers.

[jon_norstog]

I don't dispute that the other NW tribes might well have risen.

They would have lost, though.

.....
Basically, the last chance the Native Americans had to remain independent died with Tecumseh. And it was a slim chance then. There's only so far guts and skill will get you against a determined enemy with vastly superior numbers.

Fred, and list:

There was a time I would have agreed with you. But there were a lot of things that just didn't add up - like the American military I know would have mopped up the floor with the Indians. What was the deal? And why were the official reports on the various actions so obviously false?

Martin Cruz Smith, who wrote Gorky Park, his first book (1970) was an alternative history titled "the Indians Won." It wasn't perfectly elegant, but it brought out quite a few facts. Probably the most important fact was that the U.S. had a lot of people alarmed at that time - British and continental movers and shakers, the people who backed the Confederacy hoping to profit from the breakup of the U.S.

The railroads, steel mills, mines and ranches at the time were developed with foreign capital. A lot of that capital would have dried up if the Army could not police the frontier. The US was kind of a colonial economy at the time, having burned through its own reserves in the Civil War. Besides foreign investments, the biggest source of "new money" the US had was silver, but the world was on the gold standard. And the silver mines were not located in particularly secure areas.

There were some very good soldiers in the post-CW Army, mainly the officers and NCOs. The troopers and infantrymen, however, were not well trained. They couldn't shoot,didn't take care of their weapons, didn't drill. The troopers didn't ride enough and their horses were unreliable. After the Custer fight the men were spooked. At the White Bird fight the troopers panicked and broke ranks - and died.

At the same time the Indians were learning fast. The Nez Perce war chiefs had learned a lot scouting for the Army in the Modoc and Snake wars, whether personally or second hand. The young men were instructed to shoot the buglers/trumpeters first, then officers and NCOs. They attacked the artillery when they could, and went after the supply trains. Tactically, they were very good. Strategically, not so good.

What was missing from the picture? Smith thought Wovoka could have united the tribes if he had been born earlier. A generation earlier, though, was Smohalla and the Dreamer religion, Christian-influenced and with similar promises: return of the buffalo, resurrection of the dead Indians, disappearance of the white men.

A military leader? Cherokee Stand Watie, the last CSA general to surrender, died in 1871. Seneca General Ely Parker was still alive and vigorous, as were most of the 10,000+ Native CW veterans who served on both sides.

A political leader? That's he tough one. Fred is right about Tecumseh being the "last chance" for the first nations. Maybe Sitting Bull could have done the job if he had a few good advisers. If the British, French or Germans saw an advantage in breaking up the US, such "advisers" would probably have materialized.

For the same kinds of reasons the US could have lost the Civil War at Antietam, I think the US could have lost the Indian Wars at the Clearwater fight. Wait for my book,guys!

Oh, and BTW: "There's only so far guts and skill will get you against a determined enemy with vastly superior numbers" - tell that to the Israeli Defense Forces!

jn

[doncb]

Didnt Custer get kicked out of the Army for shooting 4 of his men for desertion prior to his command of the seventh. I should get some emails on this. don b in Fl.

[lboos]

doncb,
Kicked out? He should have got a promotion.

[RickH]

Iboos, Bob, not to nitpick, but the saddle and saddlebags are Model 1904.

The Indian War equipment was dyed black and the correct pattern equipment would most likely have been Model 1874. There were distinct differences between the the two models, though the basic McClellan seat remained pretty much the same.

Still nice stuff, you just need to add a Patton saber and a Model 1903 !