Did RSAF Enfield Lock provide crossguards for No.5 'Jungle Carbine' bayonets?

[nzl1a1collector]

That's an official modification taking the original bayonet 'L1A1' to the L1A3 model. Its NOT a serial number on the back of the pommel, its in fact the last 4 digits of the NSN code for a L1A3 Bayonet.

L1A3
0257

I'm assuming this modification was marked like this for a simple reason and its shown in Time Bandits photo. At the time these were being modified there were L1A3 and L1A1 bayonets in service. They had to modify all the L1A1 bayonets and if they were new and wrapped up, all you needed to do was unwrap the end of the pommel to see if it had been modified, if no L1A3 0257 then it gets put in the bin to be modified? The example I have, has only one L1A3 D70 marked grip on it, the other side is the original L1A1 grip with the designation and NSN marking crossed out L1A1 960-0011

[Peter Laidler]

Good thinking about the last 4 of the NSN KtK but where was this marking policy stated? The fact was that this was a B or C class modification which is a low or VERY low priority mod and that's why you could still see them unmodifed, from Ordnance, new, still wrapped into the 70's.

Wait to see what Tanky says but I don't ever remember seeing the end of a pommell marked like this so it doesn't necessarily follow that if it wasn't marked that it'd be set aside for modification. As I say, I NEVER saw one marked like that! And to be fair, even if you had big furry mittens on, you wouldn't need to unwrap the end of the wrapping......., you can FEEL it!

The irony about this modification was that Australia didn't do it although we had zillions of UK modified L1A3 and 4 bayonets in the Australian Ordnance system via pooled Ordnance stocks. And nor did Canada do it. But more to the point............ If the protruding catch was the cause of bayonets being lost, then why didn't we share the same concern about No5 bayonets - or No1 bayonets previously to that? Mmmmmmmmmm

[Time Bandit]

Thanks for the answers and the info etc, all interesting stuff.

I wouldn't worry about unwrapping it either. do it carefully & retain the wrapper for your collection, sure. BUT, it is simply a reworked & preserved, USED bayonet. put back into stock in a rust preventative paper wrapper.

Hi Tankhunter, I must admit I have thought about unwrapping it a few times but so far I've resisted. Main reason being that I have other L1 bayo's so figured I'd just leave this one as it is...well for now anyhow!

I'm sure you'll agree with me Tanky after having seen a zillion between us but we never marked our bayonets on the pommell either - never! There's simply no need to re-mark them L1A3 (or L1A4) on the end after modification because everyone in the world can see that it's been modified! As for the serial number......... A worthless exercise because they were all interchangeable!

I suspect that this has come in from abroad and not UK MoD.

Peter you may well be right about it come from abroad? I've had it a few years now and I can't actually remember where it came from but maybe it was a batch a dealer had got from abroad? Maybe if I opened it I might find some other markings which might help ID it, though if as mentioned by nzl1a1 collector it is a partial NSN rather than a serial number would that not make it a UK one, even if it is a bit odd?? I don't really know one way or t'other?

That's an official modification taking the original bayonet 'L1A1' to the L1A3 model. Its NOT a serial number on the back of the pommel, its in fact the last 4 digits of the NSN code for a L1A3 Bayonet.

L1A3
0257

nzl1a1 collector, I guess that makes sense, otherwise it would have to be a heck of a coincidence for a L1A3 bayonet to of had a random number stamped on its pommel that just happened to be the same as the last 4 digits of its NSN??

So, next question is, has anyone else got one stamped the same?

[tankhunter]

I'm sure you'll agree with me Tanky after having seen a zillion between us but we never marked our bayonets on the pommell either - never! There's simply no need to re-mark them L1A3 (or L1A4) on the end after modification because everyone in the world can see that it's been modified! As for the serial number......... A worthless exercise because they were all interchangeable!

I suspect that this has come in from abroad and not UK MoD.

Pete, I have seen quiet a few marked after being being Moded to L1A3 Standard. If I remember Correctly, there IS a few pages on this in the E.M.E.R As well. It shows a jig to the bayonet flat, after removing the catch assembly. Then a round Burr tool is lowered down to grind out the recess needed, to operate a shorter catch. I THINK it mentions marking the Pommel end L1A3 after this is done. & the nomenclature on the grips was Barred out with Two lines as well. In reality, the barring out, if done without drilling out the grip rivets. Would Push the gips inwards if left on the bayonet. as most barring at unit level was done with a cold chisel & a hammer! (Or Birmingham Screwdriver, as we used to call Hammers! LOL)

I have spoken to my Dad on this a few years ago. & he remembers doing the Mod to the Pommel himself at unit level himself, during some of his Service Time. Have a look near the back in the relevant E.M.E.R Pete. You will see the whole set up for the catch & Pommel Mod.

I have NEVER seen a Brit moded Bayonet with an NSN on the Pommel. ONLY the l1A3 Designation. Peter is correct with his thoughts on observing a bayonet after modding. It is OBVIOUS when you look at one. If it has a long catch & no recess!
I can only think of remarking after the Mod. MAY have been due to a trace of it's history if a subsequent flaw/Defect came to light. & it might have been a batch from a particular Manufacturer. That needed to be segregated? Just my Own thoughts on this here!..........

[nzl1a1collector]

PtP,

The modification instruction relating to the L1A1 and L1A2 bayonets being altered to the new L1A3 and L1A4 standards is S Arm V 157 Mod Inst No. 1. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of that instruction. Its referenced in V 153, pg 2, Para 7. But i have read about it somewhere else, possible in the Australian instructions or NZ Navy? or ? or ? somewhere.

[Peter Laidler]

Tanky: Yes, the mod instruction lays it all out and it was a unit mod (?) BUT the question is did we EVER mark the new designation and last 4 of the NSN on the back of the pommell? I don't think we did. As for being a unit modification.......... Well, it WAS, providing you made the jig for holding the bayonet flat/square while you drilled/milled it (off centre don't forget) in the slot. And to be fair, you didn't have the facilities to make the jig (or the inclination either) so you borrowed it from the local Field Workshop, did all of yours and then gave the jig back. Alternatively, if it was a predominantly civilian Field workshop, where time-and-motion was the in-thing, then you'd ask them if they wanted the work if we stripped them down (just like we used to do with L2 SMG's). That way the whole battalions bayonets would come back a company at a time, like new. All modified AND phosphated and blacked. Workshops got ALL of the TOTAL man-hours while we just fitted the new shortie catches. That way, they were quids in and loads of hours in hand, they went home early on Friday and came in late on Monday and everyone was happy!

Did we ever mark the ends or was this stipulated in EMER's or anywhere else - I don't think so!

Yes, that's the EMER KtK but it doesn't say re-mark to L1A3 or 4 afterwards! And yes, we definately had pommy L1A3's and 4's in Aust and NZ due to the pooled Ordnance stockpiles out there. Same as we all used CAC 7.62 ammo among other things.

As for the grips, we used to replace the grips and when the jigs were altered to use the blade as the flat milling/drilling datum (instead of the tang) we didn't even remove the grips! I still have a couple of the bull nose cutters!

[nzl1a1collector]

Here are a couple of pics of the markings on a L1A1 bayonet converted to the L1A3 standards. These are the standard markings on converted L1A1 bayonets.

[nzl1a1collector]

Here's the Grip re-riveting Tool


---------- Post added at 11:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:22 PM ----------

Maybe the L3A1 0257 markings on the pommel were done at the civilian Field workshops in batches?

[Peter Laidler]

Right.............. Just been on to someone about these markings and this is what he says after cutting out all the chit chat about old mates etc etc........ After a modification has been accepted it goes to a codification stage and then an implementation phase. It is at this point a decision is made that is entered into the EMER or necessary engineering standard and it's this. If the modification is easily and readily visible to all, then that is the end of the matter. For example.......
If a Bedford truck has the indicator lamps lowered by, say 10" or a LandRover has the small yellow indicator lamps increased in diameter to comply with a change in lighting regulations (as actually happened.......) then the modification is carried out as necessary and there the matter ends. Because the modification has been carried out and can be seen by all. There are no ifs or buts...., it is clear to all. EXACTLY that happened with UK issue bayonets that are modified from L1A1 to L1A3 (and L1A2 to L1A4). Only a complete turkey would agree that you need to mark the pommell. It's like painting your car green and then writing on the boot that '.....this is a green car'

But if the wiring that runs through the vehicle chassis has to be modified to take a higher current or the rectifier in an L1A4 IIW night sight has to be upgraded to incorporate a blocking diode/thermal shunt OR....., now listen in here......... a small hidden modification takes place deep inside an L1A1 rifle trigger mechanism housing, hidden underneath the butt, all of which will be impossible to see when the equipment is assembled (and all true actual examples by the way), then the fact is marked on what we call a modification plate - or 'mod plate' for short. This is a little plate, visible for the examiners to see. Once marked, he knows that he doesn't need to strip the kit.

But on some things, you just CANNOT have a mod plate. Things like the L1A1 rifle. So the likes of Tankie, Skippy and me look at the side of the trigger mech housing and see a little figure '5' stamped. This tells us that Mod 5 has been carried out, so we are a) happy and b) we don't have to strip it down any further to tell. Clansman radios...... Up to about mod 50 or so! But you don't strip it every bloody time to see. You look at the mod plate.

I'm not just trying to be contrary here. Far from it, but just trying to tell how it is in real life, out in the real REME workshop world, on the floor and after having been on the floor, supervising the floor and the blokes doing the job and writing and correcting the EMER bible occasionally (did the whole L2A3 EMER....)

Did I ever see a UK issued modified L1 bayonet that was crudely stamped L1A3 on the pommell? Then the answer is NO. Can I read anywhere in the mod instruction that it must/should be stamped? Then the answer is NO. Is/would such a modification be bleedin' obvious to all who see the bayonet? The answer is YES. Are there many blind users of modified L1 bayonets who perhaps might not see the modification? Possibly.......... Have I seen them all? The answer is NO.

But like I always say. I could be wrong

[Peter Laidler]

Annanuvver fing......... While talking of the old RANK SS20 IIW L1A1 to 7 night sight (see above) the vulnerable little ON-OFF switch was modified by having a little protective cage mounted to the left and right, to protect the switch lever (look at yours if you've got it handy.....). I think it was mod 3 or 4 but don't quote me. At the same time one of the 4x retaining screw blind threaded holes was deepened so that it actually entered the inside of the casing. This was so that it could be used as a desiccation vent. Both modifications were bleedin obvious for all to see because the switch was now protected and the deeper screw hole was plugged by a red coloured screw head that also retained the new protective cage.

Did these appear on the mod plate? No. Were they clearly visible for all to see as being modified? Yep!

Just my take on things