Cut-away Browning 50 cal?

[Peter Laidler]

To be fair F-10, I was of the same opinion as BAR and did skirt around this in thread 44. What you were asking was almost academic and of very limited use to you unless you were thinking of getting a CQB version. And even then it was even more academic because you wouldn't see the differences because the barrel is welded in. And to make it even more academic, as if that wasn't enough - that's even before you managed to find a CQB version - which you very probably wouldn't especially in the closed UK market.

[Brit plumber]

I believe there are a few out there, probably via the same company referred to earlier. I have a barrel extension with interrupted threads which I think is for a QCB, and I think it started life as WW2 AC Sparkplug made M2HB version.

[Peter Laidler]

There are definitely a few QCB's out there BP, but not in the dewat world there's not. Realistically, maybe that's the best place for them........ as deacts. Less trouble that way agreed Tankie/Skippy? Are you telling us that you have QCB barrel extension that hasn't got a crack or the start of a hairline crack BP? We used to say that there were two types of QCB barrel extensions. Those that HAVE cracked and those that haven't cracked - yet! Another classic case of '.... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'

[Flying10uk]

Really all I'm interested in establishing is when I see a Browning 50cal or an image of one is whether it's of the quick change barrel type or of the screwed in barrel type. The further information on the quick change barrel kindly provided by tankhunter is interesting as are the problems associated with it.

The way that my FN30, 7.65mm (U.K. deactivated), has had the deac work done to the barrel is interesting in it's self and in my view very cleverly done. It is an older spec deac and basically there is a flat machined on the barrel near the breach with the receiver cross drilled to take a dowel pin, welded in place. This allows backward and forward movement of the barrel but means barrel is also captivated within the gun and can't be removed. I do plan to do a future thread on this gun but there is a certain amount of cosmetic tidying up/cleaning that I wish to do before taking pictures. It did come with a tripod which appears to me to be a reproduction but I got the outfit for a good price and so have no complaints.

[mrclark303]

During my Post Military Service career. I worked for 11 years at a well know .50" Cal BMG Manufacturers. I have been present during NUMEROUS Breech explosions on this type of weapon system! .30" Cal is similar in most respects, just scaled down is size!........

With any Weapon with an adjustable barrel in it's design. There is then present, the POTENTIAL for this type of disaster!.... Because then, you have the potential 'built in'. For Human Error as well! I have seen MANY failures of components, & also spectacular Breech expolosions on the Range!......

if Head spacing is excessive, and also on QCB Guns (Quick Change Barrels) which is in vogue at present. Then failure to lock the barrel on a QCB gun is very prevalent. Human error, due to excitement/wanting to cut down barrel change times, Etc, Etc. Have lead to breech explosions!!!

I have seen also, Many Ex Israelie Guns after breech explosions. They even had an instruction plate in Hebrew, rivitted on the top cover! But STILL suffered from this!

You are 'reasonably' safe behind a fifty with a B/Explosion. Because there is so much 'Meat' around the breech area. The force of the explosion is contained within the receiver body/ sideplates. & directed upwards, & also downwards. the 'USUAL' components to 'suffer, are:

The top cover, due to being blown open & bending like a banana, The top cover axis pin obviously gets sheared off! The extractor of blown off & shears it's axis pin! SOMETIMES, one of the breech face side channels, or extractor grooves to you Guys. Usually the complete run down one side of the bolt face shears off. The side plates 'Bulge' outwards spectacularly!
Strangely, the barrels do not suffer, due to the large amount of metal around them. usually the forward 3/4 of the cartridge case is left in the chamber, & the base blown off, obviously!... Bullet heads, SOMETIMES lodged in the bore.
Firesight Protector & sight blown off. Due to the top cover pivoting over & forwards, shearing the retaining pins that held both parts. From the force of the T/cover smashing down on them!

I have removed the case remains, & inspected the barrels. rarely bulged, surprisingly! & Reused them in other guns, with no problems!....
We never rebuilt these guns, & left them as observational 'reminders' to 'visitors' to the factory as items of 'interest'!.......

As an exercise on one gun. I have removed all the side plate rivits, & totally dismanteled the receiver. Straightend the side plates in a fly press, & fitted a new trunnion block & rerivetted the whole assembly. New componants fitted where required, checked & fired again on the range. With no problems, I Might add!

As was the company practice, guns were never rebuilt for 'Customers' like this. No, it was far more finacially viable, to convince the 'end user' that He NEEDED to buy a new gun!......
And back then, when they were £14,000 Pounds, plus tax. that was an easier & more profitable option!....

The most common failure (& still continuing on in service QCB Guns) was failure/ fracturing of the barrel extentions. They used to crack down the inside straight run, of the interrupted threads in the extention. to Me, it was simple!...You had removed surrounding/supporting metal. from a HIGHLY Stressed area during firing! if it was going to go. it would follow the line down, as the line of least resistance. Like snapped a ceramic tile after scoring. Along a straight edge/ ruler Etc..........

in my Humble view, John Moses Browning, a Genius of Small arms design. Got it right at the start! You begin messing with a PROVEN weapon system design. Now almost a Hundered years old. And you have the potential for 'trouble'!..........There is a lot more involved in it all of course.machining stress, Heat Treatment, Work hardening failures, Etc, etc........

As ever Mike, a fine and detailed walkthrough of the issues mate. That very same company is still making hay while the sun shines!

[fjruple]

I agree completely BAR. I was in Australia when the Austs were getting into changing from M1919's to L3 rear sear .30's. It was costing thousands of ££'s/Au $'s as the conversion was patented by Enfield, just like the L4 Brens so they had to be purchased or part exchanged from the UK Govt - or whoever owned Enfield at the time. I wasn't ever with the tanks there but I told anyone that would listen (to a lowly on-loan Craftsman) that they'd be trouble and they should stick to what they knew. Luckily a few years later Aust was knee deep in them and Centurions as they acquired all the war reserve Mk5 Cent. tank stocks from Singapore and Hong Kong (virtually new and unused but strategically placed) at bargain basement prices later

Peter-- I remember reading several reports by the Aussies in evaluation of several different variations of the 7.62mm NATO converted Browning M1919A4s most notably the Canadian C1 version and The US Navy version the MK21 Mod 0. Both guns were found to be unsatisfactory to Australian military needs. I believe they stuck with their .30 caliber versions.

Cheers

--fjruple

[Brit plumber]

There are definitely a few QCB's out there BP, but not in the dewat world there's not. Realistically, maybe that's the best place for them........ as deacts. Less trouble that way agreed Tankie/Skippy? Are you telling us that you have QCB barrel extension that hasn't got a crack or the start of a hairline crack BP? We used to say that there were two types of QCB barrel extensions. Those that HAVE cracked and those that haven't cracked - yet! Another classic case of '.... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'

That's what I meant Peter, there was at least 4 for sale at last years War and Peace show. Look to have been made from scrap parts rather than complete guns. They were missing the QCB handles but the QCB barrels and supports remained.

I'll have to have a look at the brl ext I have to see if it's cracked. I know it's goosed in other ways.

[browningautorifle]

Both guns were found to be unsatisfactory

The .30 cal worked flawlessly. Our C1/C4/C5 GPMG never matched the performance of the .30 cal as designed.

[tankhunter]

There are a number of Deactivated QCBs in Civillian hands. They were assembled from left over parts. That were sold off, prior to FN buying the manufacturing company out.

They were put together by a VERY well know dealer friend of mine! I have seen all the guns he assembled & Legally Deactivated, & sold on.

They comprised of wartime original Recievers/ bodies, with whatever the well known dealer could lay his hands on at the time! They would all have been standard M2HBs as they tend to sell better to collectors. & a few WERE indeed ordered as QCBs, To go on restored Ex Brit Service Vehicles. That are still in Service today, & the owners wanted current in Service Weaponry to go on them.

The 'company' That Made the UK version of the QCB. did NOT want anything connected with 'that' conversion, to fall into 'A long established, & well respected. Small Arms Manufacturer Based in Belguim. After 'absorbtion' into 'The Belgium Company's' assests............

'ALLEGEDLY', because FN was MOST unhappy. About 'Another Firm', manufacturing what it Thought. Was a ' Complementry Clone' of their own 'Product'.......which of course was rubbish........Wasn't it?......................

---------- Post added at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 AM ----------

There are definitely a few QCB's out there BP, but not in the dewat world there's not. Realistically, maybe that's the best place for them........ as deacts. Less trouble that way agreed Tankie/Skippy? Are you telling us that you have QCB barrel extension that hasn't got a crack or the start of a hairline crack BP? We used to say that there were two types of QCB barrel extensions. Those that HAVE cracked and those that haven't cracked - yet! Another classic case of '.... If it ain't broke, don't fix it!'

Pete, The problems associated with the QCB Barrel extentions cracking. Have now resulted in this component being classified as a 'Lifed item'. In Brit Service!
I cannot state for certain myself, how many rounds are allowed to be fired from them before being exchanged. but that is the situation as it stands today!

The original Brit Army Guns that were converted to QCB configuration. Were genuine Ex Wartime recievers. They have ALL now been withdrawn from Service, & exchanged with Manroy Manufactured recievers/ Bodies. So all British in service HMGs are ALL Manroy manufacture........And at the old Price of £14,000 Plus VAT (Tax) For a New gun. that's a LOT of Money!........

As you suggest, The best thing. & indeed safest thing to do with the QCB guns these days. Is to Deactivate /Dewat them!.....

[Peter Laidler]

We sold a Land Rover WIMIC .50" Brg gun mount from work and the buyer came to collect it, pleading to buy a QCB .50 as he'd never seen one. Maybe he was also looking at the made-up fakes you mention BP. Anyway, F-10 knows what he's looking for with the compliments of a pictorial from Google.

We couldn't get our Canadian 7.62mm .30 Browninf to ruin successfully and neither could Canadian WO G C who was in the UK on other duties. He came over to help us get it sorted. Nope......... We just reverted to the more expensive option and used the .30's for a demo.