Enforcer questions...

[Alan de Enfield]

mine was - before i had to sell it number 481 or 411 if I recall and was on the flat.

There is a little bit of history known about Number 411 :

It was issued to the Scottish Police 10th December 1974 It was subsequently returned to Enfield for a refurbishment (FTR ?) and re-issued out to Derbyshire Police on 19th Jan 1981

[PrinzEugen]

There seems to be three types of engraving for the Enforcer :
Type 1 = Single Ovoid
Type 2 = Engraving on the flat of the action
Type 3 = Twin Ovoids

It also seems that there is quite an overlap between the types with Serial numbers of (for example) Type 3 both before and after serial numbers of type 2.

This pic is a "high 300s serial number" type 3 engraving - whilst I have pics of a "low 400s" and a "low 300s" with type 2 engraving

How many examples of type 3 have been seen? I ask because a lot of people who have had a lot of enforcers through their hands seem to think this third type isn't correct.

[Peter Laidler]

I don't know anything about Enforcers except what Major George S told me. He was on the Home Office advisory team when they were looking at the standardisation programme.

But I do know a bit about the engineering acceptance standards at Enfield. And I would be most suspect about the bodgy pantiograph milling of the oval slots in AdeE's picture. Allowing the milling cutter to wander all over the place causing shallow and deeper cutting and going off track as amply illustrated at the rear of the cutter stroke shows that the body has moved in the jig. Would that have been acceptable? I doubt it. After all, if they'd been milling out slots before this, they'd have got it right by then. I can almost hear the words of the Enfield floor inspectors (and I know a few of them........) asking '.......what the xxxxxxg hell do you call this? If you think that I'm accepting this, you're xxxxxxg wrong. Now go back and do it properly'
Having wielded a few Taylor Hobson pantograph engraving machines in my time, this is LOOKS like the work of an amateur to me. I could be wong.................. but that's my view looking in

[Alan de Enfield]

How many examples of type 3 have been seen? I ask because a lot of people who have had a lot of enforcers through their hands seem to think this third type isn't correct.

I have only seen two (well pictures of two) Numbers 380 and 395.
Coincidently both of these were sold to Derbyshire Police on the same day (14th August 1974) and on the same Advice Note number

On the same date three others were shipped to Derbyshire Plice (numbers 388, 391 & 392) It would be interesting to see if they also had the 'twin ovoids'.

In March 2010 Number 391 was in the USA (Spinecracker I think it was one of the ones you 'found' ?)

Whilst I will defer to those who have handled many more Enforcers that I have, or have much more 'milling' experience, I do wonder why anyone would go the the trouble of milling two ovoids rather than one (or just using the flat side of the action). If they were wanting to make a 'passable' fake surely they would copy as closely as possible the original ?

On the other hand - I cannot understand why Enfield would go from the type 1, to type 2 then introduce type 3 and then go back to type 2.

Its only 40 years ago (only he says !!!!) so one would think there should be some Enfield folks left who remember Enforcer production but it seems not.

[Peter Laidler]

'engraving' a large oval would require a milling machine whereas milling a narrow oval could be done on a small belt operated engraving machine due to the relatively small amount of 'lead' on the cutter. Additionally a small cutter would fit into the chuck of a taylor hobson engraver. That is my take on the two ovals instead of one theory

[Thunderbox]

I have only seen two (well pictures of two) Numbers 380 and 395.
Coincidently both of these were sold to Derbyshire Police on the same day (14th August 1974) and on the same Advice Note number

On the same date three others were shipped to Derbyshire Plice (numbers 388, 391 & 392) It would be interesting to see if they also had the 'twin ovoids'.

It would be interesting to find out whether the Derbyshire rifles were stripped and then scrapped as with other forces' Enforcers, thus providing someone with a convenient set of numbered parts sans receiver....

I've got 332 and 394 (both identical standard flatside), so the bracket for a mysterious "third type" is quite narrow and - so far - suspiciously limited to a single-owner batch.

[Peter Laidler]

If you've ever looked at an Enforcer with a bewildered feeling, it might be worth reading on, always remembering at the back of your mind '...the midlands connection'

This thread reminds me of a little event that took place at Warminster about 6 or 7 years ago during a visit by two US visitors. One, a lady, turned out to be a bit of an expert on a particular US wartime rifle so looked at the small collection and noticed that one of them was serial number 11. I then mentioned that we also had serial number 13 on display too! These were two of the 22 or so prototypes, both sent to the UK for trial and evaluation. Already, they were truly rare birds of a rifle highly collectable in the US.

Once back in the US, she discovered that serial number 11 was already in a collection there – meaning that there were TWO. The one in the US collection and the other in the UK, where its provenance was in no doubt due to the fact that the shipping notes and some other documentation relating to the two rifles was available.

What transpired was that as these little rifles became highly collectable during the 60’s and 70’s, the records showed that two of the prototypes had indeed gone to England and had gone to ground. Correspondence with the various agencies at Enfield and the IWM (the Imperial War Museum) that they weren’t there so it looked as though the rifles had been scrapped or otherwise disposed of. Alas, this was not the case and so another, ‘…….to represent one of the missing (and now highly valuable) prototypes’ was discreetly cloned and found its way into a prized collection.

When this was pointed out during some correspondence…………… Well, enough said - but it would appear that a ‘mistake’ had been made during which it was assumed that the original had been scrapped or destroyed and another had emerged in its place. Can you see where this is going? Does it seem familiar to anyone?

I haven’t mentioned the rifle type or names for obvious reasons but these ‘accidents’ do happen, especially where there is a midlands connection. Know wo' I mean 'arry..............

[Alan de Enfield]

It would be interesting to find out whether the Derbyshire rifles were stripped and then scrapped as with other forces' Enforcers, thus providing someone with a convenient set of numbered parts sans receiver....

I've got 332 and 394 (both identical standard flatside), so the bracket for a mysterious "third type" is quite narrow and - so far - suspiciously limited to a single-owner batch.

I have asked the relevant questions (how many did they have, what happened to them etc. etc.) of several Police forces (Durham, Glasgow, Manchester, Sussex, Devon & Cornwall, The Met and Suffolk) with surprising results :
For example Sussex Police say they didnt have any but the Enfield sales ledger says they purchased 8
Devon & Cornwall Police say they were all guillotined but we know of 5 that are still in existence.

I will do a Freedom Of Information request to Derbyshire Police but I'm not hopeful that any reply will be meaningful

[newcastle]

There is a little bit of history known about Number 411 :

It was issued to the Scottish Police 10th December 1974 It was subsequently returned to Enfield for a refurbishment (FTR ?) and re-issued out to Derbyshire Police on 19th Jan 1981

It was South Lanarkshire police to be exact. I tried to track it's prior owner / user down for any range books / information / history he may have had, But three police forces were merged in the 1990's and the records were either lost or they were just happy to tell me they were lost and couldn't help me. Thank you officer! I had to sell it when I lost my job a couple of years back. very depressing but it was either that one or several other rifles so I opted to keep the many.

[XL39E1]

Are there any real close up photos of 380 or 395 action sides to get a good look at the engraving?