LP08 help needed!

[Patrick Chadwick]

Dear fellow forum members, I need some help.
The shooting body of which I am an active competitive member has produced a list of pistols recognized for service competition that excludes the Artillery Luger - the LP08.
Of course I have written to the organization requesting an explanation. And am still waiting for a reply..

The LP08 does not contravene any rules with regard to micrometer sight adjustment, trigger pull etc - as for these mechanical aspects it is the same as the normal P08.
The rules do not specify a maximum barrel length. so that can't be the reason.
So nothing in the shape/size/mechanics of the LP08 itself.

That leaves the intended use with the shoulder stock as the only reason I can imagine.

Obviously I need to be a bit pro-active here.
So I am looking for:
a) any service instruction that forbids the use of an LP08 as a normal pistol, i.e. without shoulder stock. If such an instruction exists, then my position is weakened. However, up to now I have only found the instructions for the use of the LP08 with the snail drum magazine, which was intended for the "Sturmtruppen" in WW1. But this is a special application, not the general service usage. Handling an LP08+snail drum with one hand is not something that I would want to do.
b) any service instruction that covers use of the LP08 without shoulder stock, as an alternative to the use with shoulder stock.
c) any documentary evidence of the LP08 being issued without the shoulder stock.
d) any photos showing service** personnel using the LP08 without the shoulder stock.

Up to now, I have only found one instance of c)-d), being a photo of a type of holster without provision for a shoulder stock that was apparently made for Turkish officers in WW1*. One can imagine that officers carried the LP08 more as a status symbol ("mine is longer than yours") than with the intention of serious shooting beyond normal pistol range, and did not want to be lumbered with the complete wood and leather apparatus.

Please, search your source literature and post the results here a.s.a.p.

Thanks to you all!

Patrick

*Source "La Luger Artiglieria" by Maurice Baudino, P52. Can also be found online.

**Service personnel includes army, navy, air force, police and border guards/customs officers.

Information

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[villiers]

Attachment 53117Patrick,

Couldn´t find anything expressly FORBIDDING the use of the LP08 without the stock (I´ve looked through Sturgess and Goertz)

The LP08 must have been in general use WITHOUT the stock as the stock with its holster was only issued a year later than the pistol.

At best I could only find this (quite famous) `death or glory´ poser (taken from Goertz)

[Patrick Chadwick]

At best I could only find this (quite famous) `death or glory´ poser (taken from Goertz)

... which was, for the gentleman in question, not an "official" issue pistol, just his private preference!

The LP08 must have been in general use WITHOUT the stock as the stock with its holster was only issued a year later than the pistol.

... That is VERY interesting. Can you give me an exact citation (book, edition, page no.)?

[WarPig1976]

Don't 'regular' P08's have the slot to attach the stock? If that's the case all models should be excluded or included based on the fact all could be used with or without a stock I would think.

[villiers]

WarPig ... certainly a good argument.

I haven´t been able to work through Sturgess (weighs a ton) ... but:

Joachim Görz: Die Pistole 08 , pages 162-164

Luger Holsters & Accessories

First deliveries and distribution of the LP08: 1914
Design of the holster/buttstock had not been finalised by 1915
First issue LP08s were without the hoster/buttstock and various holsters and straps were `improvised´.
Later in the war, naval commando units in Belgium were issued with belt loop holsters for their P04s & P08s (no stock!)

Attachment 53132

[villiers]

Have discussed the matter with local gun club members who are of the opinion that your service competition rules have confused an older issue in that hand guns are limited by the distance between the front and rear sights. The longer distance between the sights could prove to be an unfair advantage.

Whereas the P04 (Marine 08) has the rear sight at the rear and therefore has a longer distance between the rear and front sight than is permissible, the LP08 has the rear sight further forward and comes within the limit. Thus, the P04 is not eligible, but the LP08 (with a longer barrel than the P04) is within limits.

Ageing and declining membership of shooting clubs automatically leads to this type of pathological disorder.

[Johnny Peppers]

According to Sturgess/Görtz the first LP.08's were by order issued with stocks "to fulfil it's tactical role". When the LP.08 was adopted the stock lug was machined on all frames to allow the manufacture of only one frame for all three military pistols.

[villiers]

Agreed! It is to state the obvious that the P08/LP08 stock lug was intended in order to attach the stock. But it does not follow that the use of the LP08 WITHOUT the stock was in any way prohibited and I would be surprised if any written evidence of this were to be found. Many pistols were (and are) provided with a stock attachment (Stechkin, Glock, broomhandle Mauser etc.) but nowhere is it stipulated that these weapons should only be used with the stock attached.

[Johnny Peppers]

I'm not sure what your point is. The explanation of the stock lug being on all military Lugers in WWI was simply to clarify why all pistols had them. The lug was on the P.08, but there was never any intention of issuing them with a stock, and this continued through the end of production in WWII.

"Don't 'regular' P08's have the slot to attach the stock? If that's the case all models should be excluded or included based on the fact all could be used with or without a stock I would think."

Also, I only indicated that all LP.08 pistols were issued with a shoulder stock; not that they had to be used with one, so don't know where you got that.

[villiers]

LP08s were issued to marine commandos in Belgium, together with belt looped holster WITHOUT a stock.