Butt stock markings, please decipher

[Theoxrojo]

I recognize the Quebec round cartouche, MK II upgraded to MK III (3 star), 357th rifle made in 1908, the rest alludes me. Any info appreciated and thanks.

Information

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[smellie]

Okay, the stock roundel you know; that is the factory stamp.

The II 3* says that the rifle is a Mark II* * * (Mark Two, Three Stars)

Mark II indicates any rifle built on the improved 1905-pattern action. The Mark II rifle went through various modifications all the way from plain old Mark II, to Mark II 5*. It was very much a work-in-progress in some ways, with many changes being tried and, sometimes, changed back. Several different rear sights were tried, along with at least 2 different types of rifling, lengths of barrel, weights of barrel.... and the rifles just kept chugging along, taking very major shooting trophy in the world. Quite a number of authorities insist that the Mark II 3* (your rifle) was the best of the whole lot!

The stamps reading 357 over top of 1908 with the AD afterwards generally are read as "three-fifty-seven AD of 1908" The three figures and the two-letter alphabetic group are the rifle's actual serial number and 1908 is the year it was built. Your rifle is 102 years old as we talk on this forum.

The remaining stamps are formation markings, indicating which units of the old Canada Militia the rifle served with. Canada's military before the First World War was recruited almost entirely on a local basis in the form of many, many Militia units, all parts of the NPAM: Non Permanent Active Militia. The country also had a PAM: Permanent Active Militia which was what we now would call the Regular Force. It was very much a training cadre for the NPAM and also garrisoned what few permanent bases the country had at that time. This ALL went down the drain when war was declared in 1914, for the Government decided that Canada's contribution would be in the more modern form of Infantry Battalions arranged in Brigades and the Brigades arranged in Divisions, each formation with its appropriate support, echelon and subsidiary troops. What actually happened was that local Regiments were called up, went to Camp and were rearranged into the new formations, packed onto ships and sent overseas. In the case of small units such as the Yukon Machine Gun Company, they were amalgamated with other units to make up he Machine Gun Brigade, later Corps, and later the Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade, and all but disappearing as a separate organisation altogether. Some Regiments (the Fort Gary Horse) were strong enough to maintain their distinct identities all through the war, but many simply disappeared and were never reactivated afterwards. Regiments reported for duty, Battalions went overseas and came home and, in many cases, there were not enough men remaining to restart the original Regiments.

Hopefully, someone who knows a lot more than I do about the structure of the Canadian Militia before the War will chip in here and supply the names of the formations which used your rifle.

But you have a very real prize.

Hang onto it, treat it right, feed it your very best handloads... and have fun together!
.

[buffdog]

In the time frame of these rifles, Canadian Unit and Identity markings were stamped on the wood of the Butt stock. SMELLIE has already given you the serial number of your rifle.

We need a couple of better pictures of the markings to properly try to identify them. Up until 1914, most Regiments used a Letter and Number system. If a rifle was transferred to another Unit, the old identifying number was cancelled, and the new Units Armourer stamped the new identifying numbers on the rifle.

The cancellation marks are those little ones that look like aeroplane propellers, sort of like an O in the center with a tear drop on each side with the pointed end outwards. The general form was the Unit letters or number over the cancellation mark (or a straight line) with the issue number (or rack number) of the rifle to the unit. The last set of readable uncancelled letters or numbers are the last Unit the rifle was issued to.

When World War I was declared in 1914, Sam Hughes renumbered the Regiments into Battalions. For example, the Fort Garry Horse regimental letters were FGH so the 15th rifle issued to the Fort Garry Horse before 1914 would be FGH over a cancellation mark over 15.

When the Fort Garry Horse was called to Valcartier for Mobilization, it became the 6th Battalion, so the 15th rifle issued during this period would be 6 over cancellation mark over 15. In some cases, a previous Regiments markings were overstamped if it proved convenient. In the actual case of the rifle above, the 4th Battalion had marked it 4/11 and the 6th Battalion Armourer overstamped the 4/11 with 6/15.

I beleive I can see KCH overstamped on your rifle. This is the King's Canadian Hussars, and a Ross Military Mark II *** would be correct for this Regiment. It looks like a cancelled KCH, a cancellation mark that was crooked to the left, and a rack number that was cancelled. The 14/4/09 could be the date it was transferred to the new unit. I need better pictures of the other marks.

Lets have a few more and better pictures, and we might be able to help you.

[Theoxrojo]

Thank you both for taking the time to educate me, it is greatly appreciated. When the sun returns in the next few days, I'll take a few more photos and post back to this thread.