No. 4 (T) DP rifle

[tower06]

I've had this sniper rifle since late 2009 when I picked it up at Sarco in NJ. That was the good old days when they still sold guns here. In any case, what I know of the rifle from the salesman is that it came out of Israel from a cache of weapons the Israeli military confiscated a number of years ago. He actually showed me the FFL log confriming that as well. What I didn't know when I purchased it was that it was a DP rifle. Being a novice with enfields, I assumed that it was some unit marking. It wasn't until I discovered this forum that I realized what I had.

I contemplated restoring it, and actually shooting the rifle, but after having read numerous posts, especially Peter Laidler who's word as a English armorer is in all likelihood gospel, I have decided against it. Not sure when it was last fired, but my guess is, if it truly came out of ISrael, it did see some use up until the time it was purchased by SARCO. Interesting enough, it looks like it may have been de-snipered at some point. The cheek piece had been removed and the screw holes filled in with dowels. Not certain if this was a DP process or if had been changed by the previous owner.

Would love to get more info on the gun if possible, at least where it may have been on a unit level, but in speaking with Peter, seems near impossible. At this point I will probably sell it at some point and put the cash towards a shootable model. If anyone has info on it, or some of the other markings, would love to hear. I'm particularly curious what the "NZ" on the reciver stands for "New Zealand"

Enjoy the pics.

Information

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[jmoore]

Nice close up shots. Your rifle surely seems to be well traveled. England to NZ to Israel to NJ. No telling where it went in WWII, but being a 1943 rifle, probably saw action somewhere. I wouldn't go to any "restoration" efforts, it is interesting just like it sits.

[tower06]

Nice close up shots. Your rifle surely seems to be well traveled. England to NZ to Israel to NJ. No telling where it went in WWII, but being a 1943 rifle, probably saw action somewhere. I wouldn't go to any "restoration" efforts, it is interesting just like it sits.

Thanks Jmoore. Not sure what the NZ 1781 stands for but assuming New Zealand. Will actually probably end up selling it. I'm looking for a shooter.

[Peter Laidler]

I wouldn't take any notice of the Israel story on the basis of 'buy the rifle and not the story.........' IT is a New Zealand Army No4T that has become worn out and relegated to DP status and then sold off in the normal course of events. DP-ing was done with hundreds (?) more in NZ and UK military service when the need arose for more DP rifles. DP No4T's are not common but not uncommon either. You could occasionally see one or two of them among/with batches of standard DP's Ex-No4T's could also be seen among the shorty skeletonised rifles too.

I often used to see ex T rifle S51 marked butts with plugged holes on other rifles too

I would keep it just because of its curiosity value in much the same way as I retained an ex DP skeletonised rifle. No real value but............

I have no trace of telescope 3975 or 8975 in my lists but several VERY close

[Thunderbox]

No real value but............

We ought to put the rifle number in a sticky for posterity. My money is on the rifle re-surfacing in a few years' time, but without the DP marks........!

[Peter Laidler]

I see that the white tape on the butt mentions 5L-4242 as having gone to England too. Looking at the fore-end number (pic 2) I would imagine that someone has read the SL maker as 5L and added the 4242 to come up with this red herring.

The rifle number seems to be A-14242. Maybe DRP can tell us when BSA started to number their rifles commencing 3xxxx

But seeing the lightly etched rifle number A-14242, you can imagine the problems we encountered at our big workshops with 'lost' numbers once they'd gone through the system. The progress chasers and R&I staff (that's Receipts and Issues staff who were responsible for the control of the special stores such as rifles etc etc to you civvies.....) used to pull their hair out over 'lost or indistinct numbers. But I'll let you into a secret if you promise not to tell anyone...........

Look............ If 125 rifles came in as serial numbers X,Y and Z and so on. regardless of how many numbers were 'lost' in the bead blasting, phosphating, machine shop, workshop system, then 125 rifles went out with those numbers attached to 125 rifles. Whether they were on the SAME rifles was not a point that we were concerned about.

The same went for Bedford trucks. If 50 came in for a complete chassis up rebuild, then they were stripped down to the last nut and bolt and chassis and......, well.........., you get my drift!

[tower06]

The rifle number actually looks like lie AT4242 when I look at it up close. Is the NZ a unit number?

[Peter Laidler]

Yep, could be right. AT 4242 it is. But it does illustrate the point about lost or indistinct numbers doesn't it? And don't get me going about Mk5 Stens and Fazakerley made L2A3 SMG's

[Thunderbox]

I've got AT4264, which is now an L42A1. Only 22 difference!

Our rifles must have been sequential when they became 4(T)s, given that about 1 in 300 BSA rifles went to H&H, calculated by the numbers range.


Mine is also a 1943 rifle, although the original number was stamped quite well.

Scope is 22127, but thats stamped into a beech replacement butt so could be a later upgrade.

[Roger Payne]

Yep, AT 4242 it is. This is typical BSA 1943 marking; with A followed by a second letter, working sequentially through the alphabet: AA, AB, AC,..........AP, AQ, AR, AS etc., followed by four numerals. I have seen a couple of rifles that were serial numbered like this & dated 1944, but I think BSA must have changed over to the five digit number starting with a '3' very early in 1944 as 44 rifles are ALMOST invariably of this latter numbering system. After the first batch a letter prefix was added; random examples might be 30159, then A34227, then B39088 etc etc. This system continued until the end of hostilities, when production seems to have ceased, although I have seen & heard of a couple of post-war Y prefixed rifles (I saw a Y prefixed 1947 dated rifle on World Wide Arms stand at Beltring a few years ago - sadly it had already been deactivated!), so there may have been some limited assembly most likely of parts to hand.

ATB