Shapes

[5MadFarmers]

"Shapes of things before my eyes." Ok, so the rest of the lyrics are bad, that first line is catchy.

Andiarisaka, a shapes observation. I get one out of the blue thought per day. This is today's:

The bulk of the 1892s were altered after the receiver/barrel end shape change. A "late" rounded barrel should screw in to a "non-fillet" receiver without problem. In the other direction it would likely take more torque than I could apply. With a sledgehammer. The receiver would likely fracture anyway.

The 1892 receivers have non-fillet receivers. I wonder if some have "rounded end" barrels? They should fit. Why make two styles? No point to that. Why don't you unscrew all of your barrels and find out?

One of these days I am going to buy meself a receiver and barrel removal sets me thinks. I have a rummage sale gun I abuse often.

______

Chuck in Idaho, PM me an address please.

Information

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[5MadFarmers]

You know, me thinks a lot of that will be Greek to people....

The Krag receivers have no fillet up to about 230K. After that they do. The ends of the barrels, the end that goes into the receiver, is square on the sub-230K ones and rounded on the later ones. It's a dating point for the receivers. Not a dating point for the guns though. Well, kind of but we have latency issues to deal with on that.

A couple of weeks ago we pinned it in regards to the early 1899s but I've already forgotten where that ended up. I nuked my boards (long story having to do with replication tools being able to "delete" in addition to "add" - oops) and I'd have to think about it to figure out where that ended up.

First batch 1899s are square IIRC.

I can see I'm going to miss that board. So it goes.

[andiarisaka]

I have unscrewed a few 5. I have found a round ended barrel in a 92 receiver in the 13000 range, and I have a 98 receiver in the 218000 range that doesn't like the round ended barrel, won't index properly, it goes past the mark, well that was with just one particular barrel. Oh, and I have used a sledge, no fractured receivers yet, leastwise, no visible fractures. I'll miss your board too, good info scattered amongst your ramblings.

[5MadFarmers]

The shapes can be determined without removing the barrels. Taking a picture from an acute angle captures the view and that can be blown up given a good macro setting on the camera.

It wasn't just a pointless observation - it has some minor significance regards the first 1892s altered. They were altered at different times and the alteration changed over time.

The last 3000 odd 1892s are mighty 1896 looking. Brophy was aware of that. It's pot luck but I think I can pin that serial range. I'm understating that I think. I can pin it. Pretty well in fact.

The fracture thing is a logical assumption on my part. They encountered fractures in 90' angles repeatedly. Not just on the Krags. The early extractors on the Krags have a 90' angle which received a fillet. The early strikers ditto. The magazine gate pin head also. Half a century later they encountered that on the operating rods on the M1 Garands. "Race track cut" to round it. Strange how they'd run into something like that yet repeat the mistake again. Early 1873 trapdoors had thin wrist stocks. Snap. Early Krags had thin wrist stocks. Snap. I think early M1903s too. In all 3 cases they ended up going thicker later.

It's going to take some time but I'm going to dig out the altered 1892s and photo that joint on them. It'll be interesting to see what I find.

I think that it can be deduced on why they added the fillet. Regardless of whether it's right or wrong, that it exists has wider ramifications regards carbines.

Congrats on your shooting. I've been rather remiss in doing that this year. I didn't neglect to buy cartridges, just didn't turn them into brass.

[chuck in idaho]

"Shapes of things before my eyes." Ok, so the rest of the lyrics are bad, that first line is catchy.

Andiarisaka, a shapes observation. I get one out of the blue thought per day. This is today's:

The bulk of the 1892s were altered after the receiver/barrel end shape change. A "late" rounded barrel should screw in to a "non-fillet" receiver without problem. In the other direction it would likely take more torque than I could apply. With a sledgehammer. The receiver would likely fracture anyway.

The 1892 receivers have non-fillet receivers. I wonder if some have "rounded end" barrels? They should fit. Why make two styles? No point to that. Why don't you unscrew all of your barrels and find out?

One of these days I am going to buy meself a receiver and barrel removal sets me thinks. I have a rummage sale gun I abuse often.

______

Chuck in Idaho, PM me an address please.

Hi Joe,
Information sent.

Speaking of Model 1892 Krags, a local shop has a very nice 92/96 on consignment for $900. Not a carbine but seriously thinking about this one.
cii

[5MadFarmers]

Good god no!!! Run!!!

I bought the first 1892/96 (ignoring the rummage sale gun) as a "slot filler" as I'm doing one of each model. Somehow that morphed. Repeatedly. 1896 rifle? meh. 1898 rifle? meh. 1892/96? Sold!

They're habit forming. Worse than Doritos.

I think the trick is to find something without that "unlimited" supply.




1 more of them left to go. I'll be finding at least 3 more 1892/1896s for that chest. Who am I kidding, I won't stop there.

[5MadFarmers]

Moving on from shapes, let's go to serials on those 1892/1896 rifles.

Andiarisaka, you'll remember on Jouster when we looked at the width of the plugged clean rod channel? It appeared to be a 50/50 distribution thing. Given that there were, more or less, 23,000 1892 rifles made, with the first 11,000, more or less, having serialized parts, one would assume that after rebuild we'd see those parts with the same frequency. Assuming they're not "high wear" parts.

I'm just not seeing it. On the gates I am. On the side-plates and followers I am not. If people would like to play along at home, and you have an 1892/1896 rifle, check the gate, follower, and side-plate for a serial. If you're not familiar with what you're looking for, I can post examples.

Gates I see it. Side-plates and followers seem to never have numbers. My sample has been limited but it's growing.

[andiarisaka]

I can't play along much Joe. Lowest # I have is a 12000 range. There is however an obvious difference in the plates somewhere between 17000 and 22000 that I'm sure you've already made note of. That is the cut at the rear, call it a filet if you will, runs right through the screwhead on 12000 and 17000, but is above the screwhead on 22000. Oh, suppose I ought to post some crappy pics to illustrate.

[5MadFarmers]

I can't play along much Joe. Lowest # I have is a 12000 range.

When they rebuilt the 1892s they didn't keep the parts together. Later guns, those that didn't have serialized parts as made, gained them. Those that had them lost them. They tore the guns down, inspected the parts, made their changes to the guns, and built the guns from the bin of parts including new ones as necessary. The 1892'96 rifles I have are a cornucopia of parts. Makes them interesting. Lack of numbered plates and followers was noticed. Numbered gates - those I have. They arrived on various guns but never on the ones they were on originally. It's like Bingo. Gun 2### having a gate numbered 8### kind of thing. Not terribly different from the "Russian Capture" K98s. I once considered starting an orphan gate list. I have gates 3###, 8###, 8### but need gates 4###, 9### kind of thing. No point though so I let the thought die the death it earned.

There is however an obvious difference in the plates somewhere between 17000 and 22000 that I'm sure you've already made note of.

In my simple mind there are 3 side plates: 1892, 1896, 1898. That is a gross simplification but it works for me. The "1896" plates will be found on late 1892s and early 1898s. There are more differences than that, and I'm aware of them, but the simplified system works for what I need. The "1892" plate has that screw form thing you mention. "1898" plates have a rounded corner where it isn't rounded on the "1896" (rear top). This system ignores changes like the thicker tenon on the plates installed on 1898 rifles (including plates having the "1896" form) but those changes aren't easily detected visually. The easiest to detect visually is the change you mention. Magazine gates also have externally visible changes. The magazine gate changed (and it can be seen externally) during the production run of the 1892s. The front of the gate is shaped differently from the later gates. There is an "1898" change there too - the back of the gate is more squared. Again, there are many changes but 3 I can detect from photos without difficulty. Recently a rifle was pictured on this site (might have been a carbine) that should have had the "square" 1898 gate but in fact had an earlier one.

When you say "between 17K and 22K" you hit another problem. The lack of a serial number table I trusted was a problem. I now have a reliable table. It's a sliding time game:

1) Get a serial number table that is accurate enough to begin pinning serials to time.
2) Grab the list of changes.
3) Do voodoo theory on how long after manufacture a part shows up on a gun.

#1 and #3 were a big problem. Took a tremendous amount of work to get those out of never-never land. I'm pretty far along at that but not really happy at what I found.

That time slide varies over time. Greatly. Which makes the voodoo theory double voodoo. Parts that were assembled into the 1896 carbines were, in some undebatable cases, made a year before the carbines popped out. On the early 1898 rifles it took about 4 months, or less, for the parts to go from fabrication to an assembled gun.

Then it gets harder, my brain begins to hurt, and I go do lawn work.

[5MadFarmers]

Pictures.

For those that haven't played this game:

The fillet and non-fillet receiver and rounded/squared barrel thing:





The magazine gate thing I was going on about:








There are more changes to those parts I've reviewed. Sometimes I buy guns just to get a part. Sad but true.