Fillers

[jamie5070]

For those who use carded wool, cotton, or kapok for filler. How much do you pack in?
Thanks.
john

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[TheDoubleD]

I use kapok. with 85 grs. I use 3 grains. I have used more, but can't see an advantage.

[MEHavey]

Literally whatever/as little as possible that will hold the charge back under normal handling. "Just a bare pinch" is all I use (whatever a "pinch" is to you) and originally tested by holding the powdered/open case between thumb & forefinger to rotate 180degr several times/shake very lightly to check for movement.

Dacron/poly is not recommended as it's not consumed, but rather melted and forms a "clump" that is (reliably) reported as ringing barrels/chambers upon impact with the bullet before it gets going down the bore.

Kapok, very small/light/"sprung" piece of cotton ball, even very small/light/"rumpled" TP works ok.

Key word is as little as possible.



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[TheDoubleD]

Literally whatever/as little as possible that will hold the charge back under normal handling. "Just a bare pinch" is all I use (whatever a "pinch" is to you) and originally tested by holding the powdered/open case between thumb & forefinger to rotate 180degr several times/shake very lightly to check for movement.

Dacron/poly is not recommended as it's not consumed, but rather melted and forms a "clump" that is (reliably) reported as ringing barrels/chambers upon impact with the bullet before it gets going down the bore.

Kapok, very small/light/"sprung" piece of cotton ball, even very small/light/"rumpled" TP works ok.

Key word is as little as possible.
.

You follow the advice above and I will guarantee it will only be a matter of time before you ring a chamber.

What ME Havey is describing are wads as used in reduced loads with large airspaces between powder and bullet to hold powder up to the primer flash.

The late Charlie Dell did a lot of work in this area and he was able to produce chamber rings from the first shot via his experiments. Dell discovered that by placing the wad about .200 off the powder and allowing the powder to slump ringing was avoided. Dell used these bare pinches, these small amounts as ME Havey reports and he found indeed that they ring chambers, Dacron being the worse.

But again keep in mind Dell was talking about wads use to hold the powder in reduced loads with leaving large air spaces between wad and bullet. Dell was not describing fillers. Fillers are used to eliminate airspace

We are not talking about wads, we are talking about fillers, a completely different animal. An apples and oranges comparison at best.

We are talking about eliminating the large air spaces with fillers; material that completely fills the air space. The most common fillers are powder and bullet. Other fillers are a stack of card wads that extend from powder to bullet. Grease wads can be added in that stack. In shotgun shells fillers are plastic wads and granular materials.

These fillers fill the entire air space, unlike wads which only hold the powder back and leave air space.

Dacron. It has been widely reported that Dacron melts. I have personally used Dacron. I have never seen any signs of melting. I have been present when others have used Dacron and they had no evidence of melting. I have asked people who have reported the melting if they have seen it first hand and no one yet has told me they saw it first hand. Dacron is not consumed it is blown out the barrel and down range. In fact this is my one objection to Dacron. It is not biodegradable and collects in the weeds down wind and trashes up the range. I prefer the vegetable fibers, like cotton and kapok as they are biodegradable.

The Brits used fillers in 577/450. Cotton wool which is in fact cotton is described in the List of Changes, the British War department regulations as a component. When Eley and Kynoch started loading the old BPE cartridges with smokeless powder they used fillers to take up the air space. Kynoch still uses filler to this day advancing to sponge foam. Since the advent of the loaded shotgun shell filler have been used in the form stack of wads and cups to act as filler.

The secret to fillers is to completely fill the airspace with the filler, leave no air space at all. Ross Seyfried advises from his studies on loading the big British Cartridges, that you should compress as much filler as you can get in the case.

The bottom line is knowing the difference between a filler and a wad and how they are used and you will have no problems.

[MEHavey]

Sorry D, but while Dacron/Poly does tend/(has been reported) to cause rings--and I warn against it-- the natural/burnable materials do not when used as described above and below. `Been using it for years in 45-70 and 45x3-1/4 Sharps, and 38-55.

It must be consumable, and it must be "airy" enough to burn when surounded by burning powder. (We're talking a 1/2gr here, and not heavily tamped/compressed down).

I NEVER use it in high performance loads, and I NEVER using it with Black Powder (in the 45x3-1/4). But rather load the likes of 10% IMR4759 under 110gr Fg under a milk carton wax wad under a 1/4" felt grease/beeswax-soaked wool felt wad under a 600gr pure lead/paper-patch. (Talk about a "column" of stuff.)

Personally, however, I've come to appreciate using the likes of Trailboss in the straightwalls for low-medium loadouts. I don't worry about fillers at that point.

[Viclav]

I shred up and lightly tamp down as much cotton ball as fills the neck of the shell and allows a .465 480 grain bullet to seat at the level of the crimping groove. This is usually a bit more than 3/4 of a puff, loaded over 85 grains of FF American Pioneer powder, which fills the body of the case. I prefer to shred and add in as the cotton tends to disintegrate at discharge... a more solid mass can wind up smoldering in the grass five paces from the muzzle.

Victor

"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate, Watson."

[TheDoubleD]

Sorry D, but while Dacron/Poly does tend/(has been reported) to cause rings--and I warn against it-- the natural/burnable materials do not when used as described above and below. `Been using it for years in 45-70 and 45x3-1/4 Sharps, and 38-55.

It must be consumable, and it must be "airy" enough to burn when surounded by burning powder. (We're talking a 1/2gr here, and not heavily tamped/compressed down).

I NEVER use it in high performance loads, and I NEVER using it with Black Powder (in the 45x3-1/4). But rather load the likes of 10% IMR4759 under 110gr Fg under a milk carton wax wad under a 1/4" felt grease/beeswax-soaked wool felt wad under a 600gr pure lead/paper-patch. (Talk about a "column" of stuff.)

Personally, however, I've come to appreciate using the likes of Trailboss in the straightwalls for low-medium loadouts. I don't worry about fillers at that point.

Read again what I wrote, dacron when used as or like a wad---your 1/2 grain example will indeed lead to ringing. I am with you warning people not to do this. This is a wad not a filler.

The question however had to do with fillers, not wads. You posted a warning about wads and it has nothing to do with fillers.

Wads and fillers are as different in their usage as apples and oranges.

There is a world of difference loading the American staightwall cases and the British high volume bottle necks.

[MEHavey]

Well, folks, I guess that about does it.

I'll close by saying that I would NEVER use a "filler" of any kind in a bottleneck case -- never.

Whatever is used to then position the powder (if you believe necessary) must exceptionally light, airy, and immediately consumed in the initial powder combustion -- nothing going down the bore at all if possible.

Use your own judgement.

[TheDoubleD]

A good book to read on this issue of fillers in large volume cases and especially large volume bottle necks cases is Greame Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle"

Wright did the load research at the Birmingham Proof house.

Wright discusses the difference between fillers and wads and how to use them.

Lot's of good helpful information in the book backed up by the laboratrory work at the Birminingham proof house.

.

[Richardwv]

I wish to comment on one of the often repeated myths touched on above and that is that there is any filler that is consumed and doesn’t go down the bore. For a filler to be consumed in the combustion chamber it would have to have a higher burn rate than the propellant itself and therefore be a propellant in its own right. For that matter, no propellant is completely consumed in the chamber either, since that would mean no flame or smoke beyond the cartridge case. While many of the substances used for filler can indeed burn, they burn (if at all) well after having left the case.