Myth Meets Fact (World War II Sniper Rifles - how good were they?)

[Badger]

I saw a reference to this article on CGN, but I'd like to hear Peter Laidler's and some others feedback on it and the author's conclusions.

Guns Magazine - Feb 2011

Myth Meets Fact
World War II Sniper Rifles - how good were they?
Mike “duke” venturino & dave Emary photos: Yvonne venturino

A couple of very popular World War II movies would have viewers think that a sniper could put a bullet right through his enemy’s rifle scope. Such was shown in both Enemy At The Gates and Saving Private Ryan made in the 1990s. not! It’s hollywood nonsense.

UK No. 4(T)
USA M1903 Springfield (dated 3-42)
USA Remington M1903A4 (dated 4-43)
German K98k AC42
German K98, BCD 45, (Krieger barrel)
USSR Mosin/Nagant Model 91/30 (Ishvisk 1944)

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Regards,
Doug

Information

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[viking guy]

The authors shot the Enfield T with WWII ammunition only. It's group sizes were 4inches at 200 yards and 8-12 at 300 yards. The author's were dissappointed with the Enfield's accuracy and did not shoot it past 300 yards. Others were tested with WWII and current ammo. The Gibbs 03A4 replica shot very wellat 300 yards and the Russian 91/30 PU sniper hit a 18 inch plate at 600 yards with 5 of 5 shots.

I think the Enfield would have shot much better with current match grade ammunition. I fault the authors for not testing it with current match fodder.

[jmoore]

I think the Enfield would have shot much better with current match grade ammunition. I fault the authors for not testing it with current match fodder.

Is there a current factory "match grade" ammo manufactured in .303" British? We used to get the PMC ammo with 174gr Sierra HPBT bulleted match loads, but found that it wasn't all that special in L-Es. Pretty good in P'14s, though. I just use 180gr Sierra PSP non-boattailed bullets for accuracy work, but they're handloaded. There's your drama, I think.

[xa-coupe]

Ammunition thats about 65 years old is most likely not going to be that consistent. I would like to see new ammo to old spec, not that anyone makes cordite in little straws anymore.. Or do they?

[gunner]

Is there a current factory "match grade" ammo manufactured in .303" British? We used to get the PMC ammo with 174gr Sierra HPBT bulleted match loads, but found that it wasn't all that special in L-Es. Pretty good in P'14s, though. I just use 180gr Sierra PSP non-boattailed bullets for accuracy work, but they're handloaded. There's your drama, I think.

I had some PRVI 174grs. rounds and found them as a good ammo at 300m. With 5 rounds a 5" shotgroup wasn´t really bad for that cheap stuff. The S&B 180grs were a little better with around 3.5"-4" at 300m. With my selfmade ammo i had a 5 round grouping of 8" at 900m. Not to bad.

[bearhunter]

gunner, you say that isn't bad? From the snipers I've used that's great shooting. Especially with WWII original equipment. Slightly over one minute of angle is probably better than they were intended to shoot in the first place, even with match grade ammunition.

While we're on the subject, has anyone seen an example of a 1949-1951 dated long branch made up as a No4 MkI* T? I've asked around, but there have been no definite answers>

[gunner]

Thanks bearhunter, i´m very lucky with my LE. It is a selfmade sniper made under Peter Laidlers advices with an repro scope mount and an Scope that fits into the time. Its a former German sniper scope made by Kahles in early 1945. This year we want to go to our only Range where you can shoot up to 2000meters. Its a expensive one($200 per day) but ill try to shoot the LE on distances more then 900m this year, like i will with other ones too. And this time with some good pics to make an good post on it. Do you have a 1000m Range close to you?
Here´s a pic of my "T". For the data´s : No4 MKI* 1944 Savage, Scope mount is a repro from Roger Payne, Scope is a 7x Kahles Helia.

[arado]

The authors shot the Enfield T with WWII ammunition only. It's group sizes were 4inches at 200 yards and 8-12 at 300 yards. The author's were dissappointed with the Enfield's accuracy and did not shoot it past 300 yards. Others were tested with WWII and current ammo. The Gibbs 03A4 replica shot very wellat 300 yards and the Russian 91/30 PU sniper hit a 18 inch plate at 600 yards with 5 of 5 shots.

I think the Enfield would have shot much better with current match grade ammunition. I fault the authors for not testing it with current match fodder.

The truth is out. There was no match ammo issued to snipers in WW2. The German 198 grn made excellent long range accurate ammo for sniping. Still does today in the Serb, M76. Gary

[bearhunter]

gunner, I'm in Western Canada. I live in the country and can be at an area where I can easily shoot out to a couple of kliks within 15 minutes. It isn't a groomed range of course but more than adequate. We aren't limited by population density as you are.

[gunner]

bearhunter, you´re a lucky guy and i´m jealous on that with the shooting possibilities! We have to go to this Range or we have to drive around 400km to Czechia or near to 900km up to Denmark to have Long Range fun. The Ranges around here do have 300m.