What exactly did I just buy? how to handle a cracked gas piston assembly?

[Dgreifzu]

I've lurked in the forums for a long time getting some pretty good advice so this is my first real post.

I just purchased an Underwood SN 2909xxx with a barrel date of 3-44 that appeared to be a non-rearsenaled gun. The barrel gauges at about a 1.5. After looking at production date ranges for Underwood, I estimate that the receiver was probably made in Feb 1944 considering that it was at the very end of the assigned serial number range (btw, I've seen conflicting info regarding production dates). So it appears that it has the original barrel. The bolt is an early flat version that is blued, the left lug as a tiny star stamp and WU is stamped below the lug.

It has the flip rear site with a ".U." mark and a type 1 band. The stock has a P-U mark in the sling cut along with a couple circular router marks. There isn't a P stamp on the grip which from what I understand would be correct for an Underwood stock. There are no arsenal stamps on the left side, and the right side has a GHD/UEF with crossed cannons in a box stamp on the right side. The front sight is marked EU which correct for Underwood, and the butt plate has a diagonal crosshatch which is also correct. The recoil plate is a type 3 that is correctly marked AU. It has the early safety button and the original magazine release button marked AU which is also Underwood. I didn't see a shadow from a Type 3 band being removed so it looked like I got something special.

So far so good, right? Now for the bad....

The front band is missing the sling swivel. The stamped trigger group has a .U. mark in the mag well so it's Underwood, but it's plumb colored which indicates that someone blued it at too low of a temperature. It has a unfinished hammer with a .U. mark, but the hammer spring has more than 22 coils so it looks like at least the trigger group and housing had been through a rebuild. I can live with all this: I'm looking for a shooter but a nice collectible gun would be nice too.

I have some questions about the authenticity of the arsenal stamp. It looks correct except it doesn't exactly match the stamp in a book attributed to Harrison. I've heard that his bookk had a lot of mistakes regarding stock stamps. The stamp on my stock is just like the picture except the cannonball touchs the cannons and the three-fingered flame is on top of the belt and not inside. Can anyone tell me what's correct for an Underwood stock?

The other issue that I came across last night when I was documenting the build is that the front site is installed backwards. The blueing in front of the sight doesn't look scratched up so I assumed that it hadn't been off the barrel. However, it obviously has been off which makes me wonder if someone has pimped it to make it appear original by replacing the barrel band, smoothing off an import mark under the barrel, and then touching up the bluing. I also was wondering about the gas slide. It is correctly marked with a OU on the inside bottom, but it also has an N stamped on the outside bottom. I've never seen an reference to an N stamp on a gas slide.

Now for the really bad. The gas piston assembly is cracked. I've seen various posts how this can be fixed. I did talk to my gunsmith, and he told me exactly how he fix it. Grind back the crack a bit to create some space. Put a mandrel in the gas piston opening for support. Squeeze it back to round. Add some small tack welds to hold it in place. Remove the mandrel and then finish the TIG weld. I imagine that the threads would need to be recut, but I see that there was actually an arsenal tool to do just that. What is the conventional widsom regarding making this welding repair or should I consider replacing the barrel? It looks like the CMP armorers can do that re-barrel job pretty reasonably.

The authenticity of being an original unaltered gun is probably gone at this point. I paid basically for a shooter that had the potential to be a collectible. Now the question becomes one of what to do now. The store where I bought it will let me return it for full credit or they will repair it for free. If I want to replace the barrel, I would probably have to do that on my own. I buy guns to keep; not to sell. I don't like the idea of passing down an altered gun that isn't what it appears to be to my son. I also don't like the idea of selling it to someone (with full disclosure) that might again try to resell to someone as "real".

I'll post pictures later this afternoon. Thanks in advance for any input into this. I've found these forums to be a great source of information!

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[cali201]

The plum color is indicative of a Bavarian refinish on the trigger housing, bluing parkerized metal turned it plumb color. To find an Underwood barrel with the correct date range of the receiver will be big $$$$ and if you are going that far then you would also need to replace the trigger housing unless other parts indicate it was a Bavarian return. Was the cracked gas piston that when when you purchased it? I am guessing and I think you feel you have an Underwood that was "corrected" with parts. Did you see indication of a removed import mark on the barrel? The Underwood barrels I have seen are all machined with concentric circles which would make removing an import mark very obvious IMO. The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines - Barrel Manufacturers

[Dgreifzu]

The plum color is indicative of a Bavarian refinish on the trigger housing, bluing parkerized metal turned it plumb color. To find an Underwood barrel with the correct date range of the receiver will be big $$$$ and if you are going that far then you would also need to replace the trigger housing unless other parts indicate it was a Bavarian return. Was the cracked gas piston that when when you purchased it? I am guessing and I think you feel you have an Underwood that was "corrected" with parts. Did you see indication of a removed import mark on the barrel? The Underwood barrels I have seen are all machined with concentric circles which would make removing an import mark very obvious IMO. The U.S. Caliber .30 Carbines - Barrel Manufacturers

I did some more research over lunch. I took a closer look at the smooth area of the bottom of the barrel just behind the sight and in front of the milling marks. I think that the finish looks "better" than the area ahead of the site. I looked on the bavarian M1 carbine site that showed where imports put their marks. The only importer that made a mark that could have been removed was INTRAC which imported M1 carbines from Austria. After a little more digging in the forums, it looks like the INTRAC mark was fairly easy and routinely removed. Also, it appears that many of those Austrian rifles came back with the Type 1 barrel bands and flip sites. I've also seen comments about the "Bavarian" or "Austrian" marks and stampings being removed potentially by the importer or by government officials before import. After looking at the metal finish which has a blackish blue look to it, I'm wondering if it is in fact a "Bavarian" carbine that went through their rebuild/ refinishing process and maybe didn't have all the extra stamps and marks applied.

I didn't know that the gas piston housing was cracked until I got it home. I'm not sure that I want to go to the expense of making it correct with the properly dated barrel. If I was going to rebarrel, I'd probably put on a new Criterion barrel and be done with it. However, I can still return the item and find myself another M1. I'm thinking that the barrel band is not an Underwood. It has 2 spot welds with no markings rather than the three that it should have. The best I can make figure out is that might be either a Winchester Type 1 or a new replacement.

I'm not necessarily big on getting the gun back to "correct" because it's already pretty correct and from what I can tell might actually be somewhat original except for the barrel band . I just don't want a pimped US rebuild that looks like an original. Now if it is a "Bavarian" that had the importer mark and Bavarian markings removed, that's okay. At least I would be pretty confident in what it is. Bottom line is I tried to buy the gun and not the "story". My main concern now is whether or not to have the gas piston housing welded.

[cali201]

if you can return the carbine and get your money back that is what I would do (unless you got it ubber cheap). A new barrel would run at least $170 plus the smith work to install it. I know Shuff charges $75 to install. There are plenty of good carbines out there that need homes and not work.

[Dgreifzu]

if you can return the carbine and get your money back that is what I would do (unless you got it ubber cheap). A new barrel would run at least $170 plus the smith work to install it. I know Shuff charges $75 to install. There are plenty of good carbines out there that need homes and not work.

Yeah, I'm thinking about taking it back. I got an okay deal for a gun with such a good barrel, but a horrible deal for something that might only be good for parts if a weld is a bad idea. I can find a decent rifle on Gunbroker or another local source for just a little more than what I paid.

[Dgreifzu]

Here are the pictures of the rifle. I am particularly interested in the validity of the Underwood stamp. And yes... the front sight is on backwards.

[browningautorifle]

I've seen that before when the gas cylinder gives up the ghost. The metal fatigues and the piston nut comes free...just like that...

[DaveHH]

I hate to mention this but the rear sight is also on backward. This is really not good because it isn't supposed to even fit that way and has been forced into position. My thought would be to drop this one like a hot potato and try again later. If there is this much poor work/underhanded stuff, what else isn't right? I hate to also mention that if there were no part swapping going on, this probably would never have happened.
I would look for an NRA sold carbine. There are quite a few out and about, some were sold just as they went from factory to storage to NRA most being late Winchester and Inland guns. The average NRA gun has been rebuilt with upgrades and usually have the bayonet lug which is an asset for shooting. You will most likely receive a carbine in great shape with all the latest/best parts which has a lot going for it. I can't see sticking with this carbine you got here, you are looking at what? Done by whom? Costing what to make right?

[JimF4M1s (Deceased)]

Dgreifzu,

Welcome to the forum. You've already seen how helpful our members can be. Also up in the task bar is a search feature to check past topics in older threads.

Looking at the pictures, besides both sights backwards. The rear probably ruined and bashed up pretty good on the side. I also see pitting. And it is the same color as the finish indicating to me it has been redone. The plumb housing has been addressed. It is effected by the nickle content in the metallurgy.

Add the piston issue and I wouldn't care how good a deal I got on it. I'd return it and look for another.

Sorry that this is your first go round, but most of us have been through it as well. Good luck and again, welcome to the forum.

Jim

[vintage hunter]

What is the conventional widsom regarding making this welding repair

Don't even consider it. I'm afraid that ''gunsmith'' is just blowing smoke hoping to scam you out of some $$. I agree with what others have already said, get your money back and find another one with no issues.