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Thread: Warner & Swasey scope mounted on a Patt. 14 (T)?

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    Member lhbh2o's Avatar
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    Warner & Swasey scope mounted on a Patt. 14 (T)?

    Any known examples of a Warner & Swasey scope mounted on a Patt. 14 (T)? Thanks

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    Aside from the picture of the Canadianicon sniper w/ the Ross-Warner & Swasey all I've seen have been 1903's. However, wbs2111 says there were P'14's and possibly M1917's done w/ W&S scopes. Different bracket, though. He has pics somewhere. The Ross exists somewhere in the States, don't have the current owner's name, not local though.
    Last edited by jmoore; 09-10-2009 at 01:04 PM.

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    Based on some quick research, it appears that the Warner & Swasey Model 1913 was used by Canadianicon forces during WW1 primarily on Ross Model 1910 rifles, and later fitted to the Enfield P14 aka the No. 1 Mk 3* rifle, designated with a (T) when fitted with telescopic scope. According to the sources below, a few hundred of the No. 1 Mk 3* (T) rifles fitted with W&S scopes were deployed during WW2. Below is a picture of one being used in action during 1944 in Italyicon (photo from Clive Law, reprinted in Martin Pegler's book).

    I currently have an un-numbered Warner & Swasey Model 1913 outfit for sale on the "WTS Forum" also on this site (milsurps.com) so this is a timely and very interesting question.

    Cheers,
    Peconga in Boise, Idaho

    References:

    1) Sniper Pictures on the WW2 in Color History Forum

    2) "Without Warning - Canadian Sniper Equipment of the 20th Century", by Clive M. Law, 88 pages (paperback), Service Publications (2004)

    3) "Out of Nowhere: A History of the Military Sniper", by Martin Pegler, 352 pages, Osprey (2004)
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    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peconga View Post
    ............ and later fitted to the Enfield P14 aka the No. 1 Mk 3* rifle, designated with a (T) when fitted with telescopic scope.................
    I thought the P14 became the No3 rifle not the No1 MkIII*
    The No1 MkIII* was / is the SMLE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    I thought the P14 became the No3 rifle not the No1 MkIII*
    The No1 MkIII* was / is the SMLE

    My error, you are correct. I apparently transcribed the designation for the P14 which should have read "Rifle No.3 Mk.1*" (after 1926).

    I confess that I am a Springfield 1903 collector (sorry, not Enfields) and have always found the Commonwealth naming schemes a bit confusing (I better run for cover now...)

    Cheers,
    Peconga in Boise, Idaho

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    The one below is for a Springfield 1903, but 500 were bought buy the Canadianicon government to mount on the Ross during WW1. Some did end up mounted on P14's at the start of WWII

    BTW, this one belongs to ~Angel~, not me. She has two of them and is thinking about mounting one on a 1903 as a shooter.


    Model 1913 Warner & Swasey Telescopic Musket Sights
    c/w RIA M1908 Pattern Leather Carrying Case


    (Click PIC to Enlarge)


    Model 1913 Warner & Swasey (lots more more pics ... click here)

    Regards,
    Badger

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    A follow up ....

    The lion's share of P14's were fitted with PP Co. scopes, however, there was a rare version manufactured by B.S.A. Guns.

    With thanks to Advisory Panelicon members Lance and Wheaty, there's an entry to the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here), complete with a 182 picture photo montage.

    No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle (BSA Scope) (click here)
    c/w matching Model 1918 (3x) Scope Serial #226763 (Mfg by B.S.A Guns)


    (Click PIC to Enlarge)

    Note: Pics of rifle provided courtesy of MILSURPS.COM member ~Angel~.

    This is one of only 79 rifles converted by B.S.A Guns, contracted between July 27, 1935 and completed by Dec 9, 1938. The scope and rifle are "all matching" with "all correct" fonts and markings for collector comparisons.

    There are several follow up sections with additional pics noted in the "Collector's Feedback and Comments" section of the main library entry, showing the "Fianna Fiel" and BSA font and stamping examples with extreme close-ups, which are helpful in spotting incorrect or reproduction components. There's also a follow up note discussing a No.3 MkI* (T) Rifle (BSA Scope), which was being offered for auction on the Internet in the past.


    Regards,
    Badger

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    Completely forgot the WWII pic! Anyway, the thing to make sure of is whether the P'14 bracket is same-same as the '03. One moment, there are books here! Novel concept. (I'm not at work for once). Back shortly.

    According to Brophy, the Ross scope bracket has longer feet. No mention of P'14 brackets in his book.

    Skennertonicon shows a picture of a Ross bracket -two long legs and one short(on the receiver ring). Pg 173 "The Britishicon Sniper" 1st ed.

    Canadianicon W&S scopes number in their own series- only 3 digits long at most rather than Brophy's stated 4 digit S/N. (At least per the examples shown in print and previously seen w/Mk I eyeballs- not mine- just near by!)

    _Apart from zeroing issues, having a spare set of scope guts might be nice- Even after a good cleaning, trash will still get on the lenses inside and drive you mad. The extra hole in the cover was a later service mod to keep the reticle from rotating. The down side is that the sealant is still on the cover screws on the balance of the scope, be a shame to pull it apart if it wasn't resealed recently.
    Last edited by jmoore; 09-10-2009 at 06:12 PM. Reason: More info

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    Member Peconga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmoore View Post
    Completely forgot the WWII pic! Anyway, the thing to make sure of is whether the P'14 bracket is same-same as the '03. One moment, there are books here! Novel concept. (I'm not at work for once). Back shortly.

    According to Brophy, the Ross scope bracket has longer feet. No mention of P'14 brackets in his book.

    Skennertonicon shows a picture of a Ross bracket -two long legs and one short(on the receiver ring). Pg 173 "The Britishicon Sniper" 1st ed.

    Canadianicon W&S scopes number in their own series- only 3 digits long at most rather than Brophy's stated 4 digit S/N. (At least per the examples shown in print and previously seen w/Mk I eyeballs- not mine- just near by!)

    Although I don't have an Enfield P14 or P17 on hand, I believe the base for the Springfield 1903 may fit without alteration, since the diameter and curvature of the left side receiver rail on both rifles is nearly identical. The mounting base on the 1903 has three "feet", all of which are the same length (unlike the Ross, apparently); as a reference I have attached some close-ups of the W&S base for the 1903.

    However, the key question may be whether the "horns" on the Enfield's rear iron sight interfere with the body or rubber eyepiece of the telescopic sight, using the unmodified 1903 base. I intend to do a bit of field research on the question this weekend, by taking the scope and mount with me to a local gun show and doing a trial fit of the pieces on a P17.

    As for the serial number, do you know where the Canadian W&S scopes were stamped? On the U.S. contract scopes, the serial number is stamped on the ID plate on the main body. In addition, those that were put into service are also stamped with the corresponding rifle number on the back of the mounting bracket (the female side, attached to the scope); the one shown below was never issued, so only has the scope number (4 digit) but no rifle number.

    Cheers,
    Peconga in Boise, Idaho
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    Advisory Panel Simon's Avatar
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    I've got a scan of the original wartime bracket drawings for the P14 / Warner Combo somewhere in my archive files, I'll see if I can find it.

    I've also heard some late (Great) war production S.M.L.E. were fitted with the Warner & Swasey scope. I've seen a couple of 1918 dated rifles marked with a C/I\ on the knoxform and other Canadianicon property marks which appear to have been drilled for a Warner but have never been able to locate a drawing of the bracket.

    Cheers,
    Simon.

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