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Thread: Beligan Raick Freres BP Muzzleloader Percussion Cap Shotgun- Can You Tell Me How Old?

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    Member johnny.50's Avatar
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    Beligan Raick Freres BP Muzzleloader Percussion Cap Shotgun- Can You Tell Me How Old?

    Hi all,

    Not exactly sure if this is the right place to ask- I'm normally in the Martini pages, but I had the opportunity to acquire this shotgun- black powder, percussion cap, muzzle loader, shotgun- but i had to make a choice quickly- no time to research. I paid $620 for it- I can't find anything close to it anywhere. Raick Brothers were around from 1807 to about 1965, but i can't find anything to help me date this gun. My guess would be from 1860s-1870s, but that is just a SWAG. Please help me identify/date.



    Thanks Much,

    Johnny

























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    Last edited by johnny.50; 01-01-2012 at 11:11 AM.

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    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    The proof marks are correct for a Belgian double-barrelled muzzle-loading gun from 1853 on, with the entwined EL marks for the provisional proof of the individual barrels, and the final proof (ELG over star in oval) on both barrels after they had been assembled in the complete gun.

    Problem: According to "Heer, Der Neue Stoeckel", Raick Fréres of Liége had been recorded from 1895-1922. Post-1895 would be extraordinarily late for a percussion shotgun. But note the use of the word recorded, not founded 1895. Which leaves it open for earlier/later pieces to be discovered. Since this book was compiled many years ago, the state of knowledge may have improved since then.

    But Stoeckel also writes: successor to Felix Raick, presumably his son.

    Now Felix Raick died in 1871, so the most likely explanation is that the Raick Fréres designation was used by his successor quite soon afterwards. It seems unlikely to me that operations stopped from 1871 to 1895, and an 1870s date for this gun is plausible. By the 1880s the Belgians were producing masses of pinfire guns, many apparently for the English market, and percussion guns must have been effectively extinct.

    My deduction: made 1871 or within a few years of that date.


    Patrick
    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 01-01-2012 at 07:17 PM.

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    Senior Member Doug Rammel's Avatar
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    I think your right Patrick. It looks like the butt plate has a short tang on top which would be a later feature. I'd like to see a better picture of it.

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    Member johnny.50's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    the tang on the buttplate is short, like a martini-henry. will post photos tomorrow night (afghanistan time). i think i am agreeing about the date. based on the spangled inspector marks, it must be post 1877, but not too much from there.

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    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny.50 View Post
    based on the spangled inspector marks, it must be post 1877, but not too much from there.

    Very good observation! That is a very late percussion gun.


    Patrick

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnny.50 View Post
    Hi all,

    Not exactly sure if this is the right place to ask- I'm normally in the Martini pages, but I had the opportunity to acquire this shotgun- black powder, percussion cap, muzzle loader, shotgun- but i had to make a choice quickly- no time to research. I paid $620 for it- I can't find anything close to it anywhere. Raick Brothers were around from 1807 to about 1965, but i can't find anything to help me date this gun. My guess would be from 1860s-1870s, but that is just a SWAG. Please help me identify/date.



    Thanks Much,

    Johnny

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/064-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/059-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../01/0471-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/038-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/049-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/052-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/053-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/050-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/051-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/019-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/013-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/017-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...2/01/029-1.jpg

    Les plus belles réalisations de cet artisan, et bien d’autres encore, se trouvent dans le livre "Les armuriers Liégeois à travers leurs réalisation.

    1800 - 1950".

    Pour tous les détails voir : LES ARMURIERS LIEGEOIS



    Raick

    Fusil double de chasse à percussion, à charger par la bouche. Les canons lisses sont juxtaposés, de calibre 12 (18,2 mm). Les platines en avant sont à percussion, les chiens sont extérieurs. Le pontet est à volutes. Les parties métalliques sont gravées de feuillage et d’animaux. La crosse en bois de noyer est de type « pistolet » avec boite à amorces en laiton en forme d’oiseau. La baguette est logée sous les canons.

    Les poinçons

    Cette arme porte les poinçons réglementaires du banc d’épreuves de Liège, à savoir :

    ELG sur étoile dans un ovale vertical : acceptation définitive, en usage de 1846 à 1893.

    O, V et T sous étoile : contremarques des contrôleurs post 1877.

    Perron : inspection, en usage de 1853 à nos jours.

    18, 2 : calibre en mm, en usage de 1889 à nos jours.

    Les marques

    RAICK FRERES LIEGE BELGIUM : fabricant d’armes liégeois, maison fondée en 1807, LIEGE rue Jonfosse, 72 (voir le site).

    F inversé R dans un rectangle : marque de cette firme.

    JS sur le canon : il s’agit vraisemblablement de la marque d’un canonnier dont je n’ai pas retrouvé les références.

    III : marque d’équipeurs.

    53 : numéro de série de l’arme.

    198 : signification ignorée, il s’agit peut-être d’une marque laisse par le canonnier ?

    Annexes

    Publicité de la maison RAICK Frères.

    GG









































    Raick

    Raick frères

    Rue Jonfosse, 72 à Liège

    Inscrit au banc d’épreuve de 1895 à 1952

    Maison fondée en 1807.



    Par Herr

    Raick Antoine, Liège erw 1859/62 "Fabricant".Brevet en 1860 et 1861 pour l’adaptation d’un pistolet à percussion pour l’utilisation de cartouches métalliques.

    Raick Felix, Liège *1814/mort en 1871 "Fabricant".fils de Mathieu Raick. Reprend la firme de son père en 1866.

    Raick Louis, Liège ca 1840.

    Raick Mathieu, Liège erw 1740.

    Raick Mathieu, Liège né en 1784 et mort en 1865. Père de Felix Raick. Etabli en 1807 comme "fabricant". Signe à partir de 1840 "Raick et Fils". Succursale à Paris.

    Raick Frères, Liège erw 1895/1922 "Fabricant" Succède à Felix Raick. Succursale à Londres.

    Raick & Fils, Liège ca 1840/65.





    Catalogue RAICK















    Raick

    Merci à "GIAN LUCA" pour les photos.









    "Raick Freres Liege Maison fondée en 1807"







    "Prima - Fried Krupp Fluss Stahl - Essen"



    Fusil Raick cal. 12

    Photos autorisées par M. Rick Van Riter









    Extrait de catalogue "Raick"



    Fusil de chasse Raick

    Le R couronné : canon rayé - depuis 30/01/1894.

    AI étoilé : marque de l'inspecteur du banc d’épreuve de Liège.

    PV surmonté d'un lion stylisé : épreuve à la poudre sans fumée depuis le 04/10/1898.

    ELG dans un ovale couronné - acceptation du BE depuis le 11/07/1893.

    Et cerise sur le gâteau.

    ACIER "SECURITAS" est une marque de fabrique déposée par DELCOUR-DUPONT Jean, industriel à LIEGE, le 06.06.21.

    La marque DDN dans un ovale couronné, bien que non répertoriée, devrait logiquement être du même.

    GG











    Extrait de catalogue "RAICK"



    Retour "ARTISANS IDENTIFIES"

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