Photograph of rare Canadian Telescopic Rifles from WWII (Expert opinions wanted)

[servicepub]

Unfortunately, I am nowhere near my books or reference material. That said, it does not surprise me that experimental and pre-production rifles would end up on this course. It is a method of providing real-time exposure for the new weapons in a controlled environment. Although the Canadian Army Overseas was engaged with the enemy one could not expect to wait for a report from the battlefront as they had other priorities.
However, a range in Canada, where the skill was taught, practised and honed, and a considerable number of shots were fired, allowed for valuable user reports which would be fed from the Sniper Course, through A10 School and up the chain.
Thanks for posting the picture. I wish I had it available when I wrote "Without Warning".
Clive

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Surpmil]

Unfortunately, I am nowhere near my books or reference material. That said, it does not surprise me that experimental and pre-production rifles would end up on this course. It is a method of providing real-time exposure for the new weapons in a controlled environment. Although the Canadian Army Overseas was engaged with the enemy one could not expect to wait for a report from the battlefront as they had other priorities.
However, a range in Canada, where the skill was taught, practised and honed, and a considerable number of shots were fired, allowed for valuable user reports which would be fed from the Sniper Course, through A10 School and up the chain.
Thanks for posting the picture. I wish I had it available when I wrote "Without Warning".
Clive

Any plans for a 2nd edition?

Kinda like the Arrow, huh?

And compared to the implications of the Avro Jetliner, the Arrow was small potatoes.

[Peter Laidler]

To be honest, there's not much else that can be said is there. Great period photo but the rifles except 5th man from left are odd-balls (Non standard No4T's probably being tested against the standard No4T that is the control sample.

How accurately the rifle with the shortened fore-end shoots can only be guessed at as we KNOW what happens when you cut the fore-end off! The Lymans.........., well............, anyway let's pass! The British certainly gave it the thumbs down in no uncertain terms. The eye relief on the two on the right (No67's?) looks too short to me too.

The snow smocks are interesting. We used to have a similar thing here, but camouflaged, called a 'smocks, windproof' and were issued up until the mid 70's and was well liked by the snipers over the suggested paratroopers smocks as it was longer, windproof of course and if washed in a water repellent wash, was sort of waterproof.
There, some comments to get your teeth into

[Roger Payne]

It's a remarkable photo indeed but I couldn't add anything to what others have said. I think cheesycigar's inital assessment is likely to be accurate. If only someone could contact any of those guys who might still be living.....

ATB

[Badger]

The 5th man from the left appears to be holding a plain-jane No.4 telescopic rifle. (unless someone can spot something out of the ordinary)

The man 6th from the left is holding a cut down rifle. I am almost certain that it is (or is closely related to) this rifle: 1943-44 Enfield No.4 Mk1* Experimental Long Branch 'Scout' Sniper Rifle

Like the rifle listed in the Knowledge Library, it has a cut-down stock, a totally new buttstock (rollover cheekpiece and a rubber butt), and no charger bridge. From this angle, it's difficult to tell whether or not it's fitted with the windmill-style 4 position backsight (which was mounted on the left side of the receiver) As well, this rifle mounts a different scope: the C No.32 Mk 4 (C No.67 Mk I) onto what should be a Griffin & Howe mount. (which was what the type was configured with. I, however, might be incorrect. But from I can see, it appears to be a match)

Great quality pic…..

Thanks for posting it for everyone to share …

I believe your conclusions about that specific rifle are correct. I have enlarged an area of the pic where you can see through to the other side and you can just make out the windmill off-set rear sight, plus when you look at the from sight area, you can clearly see how it swivels outwards to the left, in order to line up with the windmill sight.

Attachment 34490 (Click PIC to Enlarge) Attachment 34491

Other than the butt, which in our MKL example is a standard looking No.4 butt with the cheekpiece, it does appear that the one you've referred to in your grandfather's pic is also one of the 10 experimental rifles produced at Long Branch.

Although you can't tell from the angle of the barrel whether the rifle in the pic has a bayonet lug, if it did, then like the one in the library entry, it would be just 1 of 4 (possibly 3 if US bayonet lug) produced like this. Extract… "Four of these were to accept the No.4 spike bayonet, three were described as "semi-long forend and US bayonet" while the last three were not setup to accept any bayonet."

(Click PIC to Enlarge)

Regards,
Doug

[Peter Laidler]

It's also a thought that as you might recall from 105 and 120mm tank barrels, the fore-end also acts as a thermal sleeve for the No4 barrel. Seeing that it's pretty cold there, I wonder just how a cold breeze across the barrel would affect accuracy. It certainly did with tank barrels

[CheesyCigar]

I'd like to thank everyone for their responses.

Just out of curiosity; does anyone have any figures for the rifles that had sporty buttstocks? How many were made? Did it ever make it beyond the testing fazes? How many were fitted with the No.67 scope?

[Peter Laidler]

No idea here but we have one of the butts. It would be an absolute doddle to reproduce one on a copy lathe connected to a shadowgraph. Simplified I know, but the engineers will see what I'm getting at

[breakeyp]

No idea here but we have one of the butts. It would be an absolute doddle to reproduce one on a copy lathe connected to a shadowgraph. Simplified I know, but the engineers will see what I'm getting at

Peter it is odd that you mention the pistol grip/sporting butt stock as I have the Long Branch steel master for the profile lathe that made buttstocks. It is carved out of a steel blank and weights about thirty pounds. It came from the big Long Branch auction/closeout.

[buffdog]

.
If we assume that the two rifles on the left side of the picture are identical, here is an enlargement of the other four types. With the variety of rifles here, this picture almost screams "TESTING" of sniper rifles. It is also possible that the two rifles on the left with the Lyman Alaskans on them had different magnification power on the lenses or different reticles ----eg. crosshair in one and post and crosshair in the other --Lyman did make both types.
.

.