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Thread: *Modèle 1936 MAS Survey ... Updated: 01-29-2009*

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    *Modèle 1936 MAS Survey ... Updated: 01-29-2009*

    I would like to ask all our valued members to please help and contribute to this post as much as you can .... This is how we learn and disseminate information regarding our weapons we collect and shoot.
    This information was started originally on the Frenchicon Forums on Gunboards.com but I think that our members here would like to help with this as well.
    If you want to contribute information on this please either post it here or go to Gunboards.com and send Thomas M. Giles known as orcmastiffs a PM there with the information. If it is posted here I will send him the information to him directly.
    I will up-date this post whenever he does over there
    Thanks
    Patrick

    Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Vive le Pinard !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0

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  3. #2
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    Thread Starter
    In light of the new information which is becoming available, it is past time that the MAS Survey be resurrected for the New Board. Should those with the authority deem this project worthy, it is hoped that they will elevate this list to the active "Sticky" status, which it once enjoyed. The down side of this, of course, is my lack of technical facility and my pedantic writing style. It is my pledge that I shall enlist a grandson to teach me the mysteries of posting captioned, thumb-nail pictures, and I shall limit my commentary to brief synopses of what has been learned, to date.

    We shall continue to retrieve some of the lost history of the MAS 36. By comparative listing of known artifacts, the anecdotal tales which accompany these rifles may be confirmed or rejected, and fresh inquiries and debates enjoined. The monthly production rates will reflect upon the rush to war and provide a glimpse of Frenchicon industrial society, from the mid 1930s through the end of the war years.

    Primarily this will be a compendium of butt stock serial numbers, and the month and year exhibited within the "MA" cartouche. But beyond this, the incorporation of committed changes may be dated, sub contractors identified and tracted, lead time of barrel production established, and anomalies noted.

    Please feel free to include such things as the type of upper band, rear sight base, magazine follower, receiver and bayonet. The manufacture's code, the acceptance proofs upon the receiver ring, the date and codes of the barrel, and any other information which you feel is of note, may ultimately prove invaluable.

    I am neither an expert nor an advanced collector. If I have an expertise, it is in metal working and heavy industrial technique. This list is the result of contributions from the general membership, many of whom are far more knowledgeable than myself. Should any disagree with a conclusion which I have drawn, or how the list is expanding, let it be known. This is how we shall progress and learn.

    Thomas M. Giles/ Orc Mastiffs

    A SHORT AND BIASED TAKE ON THE MAS Mle 1936

    Best known as the last bolt action design, adopted for general issue to troops of the line, it is often overlooked that they are also an engineering masterpiece of utility and economy, given the materials and industrial techniques of the time. Machined castings and forgings, each served multiple tasks in securing both the integrity and function of this rifle. Should you be fortunate enough to have an original, matching rifle, you will know how solid and silent it is; as if hand-fitted to be mute in the field, until bidden to speak. And when it speaks, it does so with an authority and accuracy that rivals or surpasses any of its contemporaries; while the aperture sight serves to bring the myopic and the astigmatic back into the effective ranks of the fire team.

    The solid receiver may have harkened back to the redoubtable Lebel, but it also anticipated all modern military designs. The large diameter bolt body assures a smooth, consistent transition that gives the push feed its reliability, as the rear lugs facilitate the short, quick bolt-stroke. While the magazine and the step contoured barrel are decidedly Mauser's innovations, the magazine floorplate is a distinct improvement, and French mastery of woodworking has given the stock a unique self-bedding feature, as well as the elegance of the European Walnut, which it utilized.

    But, on May 10, 1940, when the Germans began to storm across the borders, only 200,000 of these rifles would have been available to the Armies of France and her colonies. It was for the Lebel and the Berthier, reworked and upgraded to varying degrees, to arm all but a small percentage of those who stood against the flood. Their chronologies will be found on the other lists.

    ################################################## ############

    G 11X October 1937
    G 6241 March 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps/ Barrel top-FULL SERIAL NUMBER, "E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1937
    G 11803 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps/ Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
    G 12806 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
    G 167XX September 1938
    G 325XX February 1939
    G 34140 Unknown /Type 1 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"G" MAT 1937
    G 347XX February 1939
    G 35223 February 1939
    G 38551 February 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /"LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
    G 386XX February 1939
    G 38867 February 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 405XX Unknown 1939 /"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
    G 40766 March 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Barrel flat "C" MAT 1938
    G 42XXX March 1939
    G 42570 March 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Barrel flat "A" MAT 1937 / [Grip Flat unmarked/unnumbered]
    G 45078 April 1939
    G 453XX April 1939
    G 56624 June 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /
    G 57353 Unknown /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 61474 June 1939
    G 63627 June 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 67719 July 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver / Barrel flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 6913X July 1939 /Type 1 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    G 76328 Unknown 1939
    G 77597 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"LY" SACM 1938
    G 78767 August 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver
    G 80708 September 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /"LK5" MARKED stock
    G 85722 September 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver
    G 91765 October 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver
    G 92078 October 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Bolt stem-UNPREFIXED #414
    G 97504 October 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"AS" MAS 1939
    G 98738 October 1939
    G 98904 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps

    H 4720 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939
    H 8872 December 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939
    H 117XX December 1939-"E",L,M,G, proof
    H 12757 December 1939 /Type 2 MODIFIED receiver / "LK5" MARKED stock / [Grip Flat marked-"41", 5mm case]
    H 1397X December 1939
    H 17066 December 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    H 243XX January 1940
    H 29251 Unknown 1940
    H 33057 January 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1937 / [Grip Flat marked-"11", 5mm case]
    H 34020 January 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"AS" MAS 1939
    H 36706 unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock [Grip Flat marked-"10", in 5mm case]
    H 38566 February 1940
    H 45671 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
    H 49756 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
    H 62535 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1939
    H 63518 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps
    H 637XX March 1940
    H 6399X March 1940
    H 72756 Unknown / Type 1 receiver
    H 73333 April 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom flat-"A" MAS 1939
    H 74410 April 1940 /Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"A" MAT 1939 / [Grip Flat marked-"2", 6mm case]
    H 74991 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
    H 753XX April 1940
    H 77116 April 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
    H 79037 April 1940
    H 80324 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,(?), stamps / "LK(?)" MARKED stock / [Grip Flat marked-"31", 5mm case]
    H 80671 April 1940
    H 82477 April 1940
    H 8254X April 1940
    H 82932 April 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    H 91525 Unknown 1940 / Barrel flat-MAT 1940
    H 963XX April 1940
    H 96738 MAY 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / PERHAPS a DELAYED ACCEPTANCE rifle, as the J 6187 would otherwise be antecedent

    J 3823 May 1940
    J 3882 May 1940 / Type 1 band & Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    J 6187 April 1940 [?] Out of sequence/ see H 96738 & J 3823/3882, above.
    J 8222 May 1940 / Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    J 8254 May 1940
    J 18920 May 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock
    J 20233 June 1940
    J 21044 Unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 Factory receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Barrel bottom flats-"A" MAS 1940

    K 2043 Unknown 1940 /Type 2 Factory receiver-"E",L,M,"MF", stamps
    K 2502 May 1940
    K 3462 Unknown / Barrel Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
    K 7227 June 1940 / "MF" Mfg./"E"
    K 11569 June 1940 / "MF" Mfg.
    K 12185 June 1940 / "MF" Mfg./"E",L,M, stamps
    K 13089 June 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M, "MF" stamps / Barrel bottom flat-"A" MF 1940
    K 25980 June 1940 /Type 3a band & Type 2 receiver / Barrel bottom flat-"A" MAT 1940

    L 2421 Unknown /Type 2 receiver / Barrel Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1940
    L 35XX June 1940
    ************************************************** *******************
    The "MYSTERY" rifles are eccentric to serial-production. They are divided only upon the basis of whether they have been stamped with an un-prefix number, or are sterile/devoid of any numbers. The "Sterile" examples uniquely exhibit improper headspace. (Three of the six reported examples will not close on "GO") Aside from this defect, both "Numbered" and "Sterile" units are possessed of the following anomalies:
    1] They are unissued; perhaps unfired.
    2] They are a collection of near-Armistice parts, some 'pickled'/acid-etched and not 'stoved'/blackened; some appearing to have been defective/rejected parts.
    3] The quality of assemblage is not as consistent, nor to the standard of serial-production examples.
    4] The bayonets are from earlier rifles, or replacements of a latter-day.
    5] None are import marked.
    6] Some have incorrect sight-leafs, and will not shoot to point of aim.
    7] They all have 'Type 2' factory receivers, some of the later type.
    8] Some have a 'sticky' bolt-cap, which requires detenting the striker, and the use of a gripping tool, for removal.

    MYSTERY STERILE:
    [A] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1939 / Receiver left flat marked "MAS Mle 1936" on partially milled surface [banner milled]
    [b] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / UN-PREFIXED #4039 on bolt-stem /
    [C] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight /
    [D] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940
    [E] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"C" MAT 1940
    [F] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight

    Exclusive to the "Numbered" examples:
    1] The font of the numbering to very different than that which is used upon the serialized rifles.
    2] The bolt-stems, when marked, are numbered upon the outboard side.

    MYSTERY NUMBERED
    # 34 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER]
    # 171 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight
    # 282 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940
    # 320 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band
    # 360 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAS 1940 [Barreled-receiver was never "Stoved"] Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER
    # 420 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Bottom barrel flat-"C" MAT 1940 [Barreled-receiver & Bolt were never "stoved"] Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER
    # 432 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"?" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER. Non-Matching die set used for the "2"]
    # 486 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER]
    ************************************************** *******************
    TIR REDUIT .22 calibre, full size MAS 1936 training rifle, made for and accepted by the Vichy military. By all indications this production run appears to be a minor footnote, with 1,000 units being fabricated per month, at least during the first four months. But it is the earliest documented series to incorporate all of the design changes that make the post-Liberation "script prefix" blocks unique from the pre-June 25, 1940 Armastice, MAS 36s.
    Tir reduit 5.5 L:
    # 1432 September 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine followed /Type 2 upper band [Button cross-pin doubler]
    # 2721 October 1941
    # 3472 November 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band /Type 1 bayonet with two (2) digit serial number on end cap. [The Barrel flat is sterile/not marked in any way]
    # 4439 December 1941 /Type 2 receiver & rear sight assembly /Type 2 upper band
    # 14046 Unknown /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band
    ################################################## ##################################

    K 31567 Unknown /1940 barrel
    K 319XX October 1944 /1940 barrel/Type 2 rear sight base/ Type 1 sight leaf & slider
    K 32430 Unknown /Type 2 MODIFIED rear sight base
    K 45054 Unknown /MAS 1940 barrel
    K 60166 Unknown /"A" MAS 1940 barrel
    K 61223 Unknown / C.R.39 receiver
    K 63785 Unknown (1944?) /"A" MAS 1940 barrel/Type 2 MODIFIED rear base & sight/Type 2 lower band/Walnut stocks/[Pictures below by '28 mosin']
    K 94536 Unknown (1945?) /Type 2 receiver/"I(?)-Y" MAS 1945

    L 27313 Unknown / Barrel bottom flat-"AS" MAS 1945
    L 65371 Unknown / 1945 barrel
    L 65693 Unknown 1945 /Type 2 receiver / Type 2 rear sight / Walnut stock
    L 72943 Unknown /Type 2 receiver / MAT 1945 barrel / Type 2 rear sight
    L 910XX Unknown 1945 /Type 2 receiver / 1945 barrel

    M 7977 Unknown 1945 /
    M 22001 Unknown / Matching Script S/N on Type 2 (stamped) mag plate & triggerguard
    M 33001 February [year not discernable] Type 1 mag plate / Type 2 triggerguard / Walnut stock
    M 435XX March [year not discernable]
    M 61474 Unknown / 1946 barrel
    M 79798 June 1946 / Walnut stock / Matching Script S/N on Type 2 (stamped) mag plate & triggerguard
    M 88590 July 1946

    N 23738 December 1946 /Type 3 lower band / Stamped triggerguard / beech stocks / 1946 barrel / black enamel finish
    N 55448 September 1947 /Type 4 band / Stamped mag plate & triggerguard / Beech stocks

    P 435XX Unknown / Barrel flat-"AS" MAT 1949

    Q 306X April 1950
    Q 59326 Unknown 1951 / Barrel-MAS 1951 / "E",B,G, / Beech stock
    Q 73579 Unknown
    ################################################## ##################################

    MAS Mle 1936 C.R.39

    Cursive/Script "F" Series:
    F 15XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Walnut fore-stocks / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish /
    F 19XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Barrel dated 1940 / Walnut fore-stock / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish / fabric sling
    F 19XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Beech fore-stocks / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish / fabric sling
    F 54XX Unknown / (Receiver only) / Parkerized (?)
    F 194XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Beech fore-stock / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Blued finish (?)

    Roman/Latin block-font "F" Series:
    F 305XX Unknown / Type 3 band / Beech fore-stock / 'green rubber' coated butt-stock / Barrel-flats "CS" MAS 1952 / Parkerized finish / leather sling
    F 338XX Unknown / Type 3 band / Beech fore-stock / 'green rubber' coated butt-stock / vertical serial number / Parkerized finish / leather sling
    ################################################## ##################################

    MAS Mle 1936-51

    F 115XX Unknown 1953
    F 20033 November 1953 / Beech stock
    F 22126 Unknown 1953
    F 22705 January 1954 / Beech stock
    F 600XX October 1956 / 1963 barrel / Walnut stocks [?]
    F 62568 July 1955
    F 733XX December 1955 / Beech stocks
    F 75453 January 1956 / Beech stocks
    F 92681 July 1956 / "E",B,G, / Beech stocks
    F 95172 September 1956 / Beech stocks
    F 99218 October 1956 / Walnut stocks [?]

    G 4141 Unknown 1957 / Beech stocks
    G 16469 August 1957 / Beech stocks
    G 19051 October 1957
    G 20781 October 1957
    G 20782 October 1957
    G 24213 August 1957 / Beech stocks
    G 27027 Unknown 1958 / Beech stocks
    G 32453 April 1958 / Beech stocks
    G 42075 September 1958 / "E" / Beech stocks
    Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Vive le Pinard !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0

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  6. #3
    Member 1886lebel's Avatar
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    1) The Macaron, Macaroon, Roundel, Comite de la Reception, Manufacture d'Armes and 'MA' cartouche.
    a] At the top is the month of acceptance
    b] At the 3 O'Clock is the Controller or Director General's code
    c] At 6 O'Clock is the year
    d] At 9 O'Clock is the Manufacturer's code (The "S" being St Etienne)


    2) Receiver-Final Firing Proof "E", Diamond (rhomboid) "L", Oval "M", and Shield "G", form the most common proof pattern, post June of 1938.


    3) Receiver-"E", L,M, CONCENTRIC CIRCLES, proofs ('Shield' Inspection stamp absent)


    4) Barrel top-
    a] "E" & ["G" in circle] (April, 1940)
    b] FULL SERIAL NUMBER, "E"[Old Style] & ["G" in shield] / Note: Shield "C" on receiver ring (March, 1938)


    5) Barrel bottom flat-
    a] "RG" MAS 1937 (March, 1938)
    b] "A" MAS 1939 (April, 1940)


    6) Receiver-"E", L, M, "MF" (ManuFrance) proofs ('Shield' Inspection stamp absent)
    Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Vive le Pinard !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0

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  8. #4
    Member 1886lebel's Avatar
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    My apologies for these photographs being long overdue, and again for their inferior quality. Hopefully this will change, but for now, let them serve as a visual guide to some of the vague and arbitrary terms used in the 'List', above. The descriptions, left to right, will attempt to wed these terms to the pictures.

    1) Two June 1938 issued rifles that bookend production for that month, when something less than 2,000 units were produced. They are identical as to component-part suppliers, markings, proof, and both are matching. The near rifle was slung, during its service life, after the fashion of the cavalry, from the side loop of the lower band, while the upper example indicates attachment to the bottom loop, as prescribed for the infantry rifles. The 'cavalry' rifle is in much better physical condition, though the barrel throat shows more erosion than does the 'infantry' unit. Both will group to a two inch expectation, from the bench, with Frenchicon military ammunition.


    2) Receiver types are shown here:
    a] On the left is the 'Type 1'. This is the originally configured tang for all rifles, until completion of the "H" series.
    b] Next is a 'Type 2 MODIFIED' receiver. Many such rifles are associated with the addition of a 5mm or 6mm number(s) added to the pistol-grip flat, of the butt stock.[Shown in the Right Hand Photograph]
    c] A well machined notch, as observed upon some un-prefixed 'Mystery numbered' rifles.
    d] A 'Type 2 FACTORY' notch, typical of those pre-Armistice rifles of the "J", "K", and "L" series. From photographs, this appears to be the type found upon a 'Mystery sterile' rifle, as well.


    3) The three earliest upper band configurations may conflict with those listed elsewhere, but the 'List' has established, from examples, that the sequence below is correct.
    a] 'Type 1' slab-sided upper band, with off-set piling hook and small, half-spherical terminus; this is the band used exclusively throughout the "G" and "H" series, and into the "J"s and "K"s. It is also found upon the earliest 'Mystery numbered' rifles.
    b] 'Type 2' soldered grommet plug, used to extend the bearing surface for the cross-pin threads. Either the tin or flux residue, often causes the 'stoved' finish to fail at this location, exposing a bright ring about the grommet. The piling hook is off-set with, in some apparently later instances has a flattened terminus of slightly increased diameter, similar to those found upon the Berthier models. The first consistent production usage was in the "Tir reduit" series, of 1941. This is also evident in later 'Mystery' rifles, though the rounded terminus is more often encountered.
    c] 'Type 3a' mill-step doubler, covering one-half of the area toward the piling hook cleavus. The 'Type 3b', which is not shown, had the mill-step extended over the entire length, and is thought to be a later, production expediency. Again, the off-set piling hook is tipped with the Berthier style terminus, which is encountered upon the subsequent band types, as well. This third type of band is found on near, post-Liberation rifles, though occasioned upon a few pre-Armistice, modified or reworked rifles, contemporary to that period.


    4) Lower bands are basically of two types:
    a] On the left is the stamped ring, 'Type 3', common to post-war and reworked rifles. The 'Type 2' may have been milled or cast, with over twice the hinge length, where the ring attaches to the band.
    b] Three views of the 'Type 1' band, shown from the left-hand, the bottom, and the right-hand, respectively. The left hand, 'Cavalry', sling slot is formed by the annular barrel of the tension screw housing. The bottom slot is the 'Infantry' sling attach point. The right hand view shows the hinged joint, almost invisible due to the excellent fit-up, when installed. This 'Type 1' is correct for all pre and wartime rifles.
    Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Vive le Pinard !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0

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  10. #5
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    Thread Starter

    02-21-2009 ... New Serial Numbers

    G 11X October 1937
    G 2494 February 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver ["S" at 3 o'clock in cartouche]i.e.,[S@3o'clock]
    G 6241 March 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps/ Barrel top-FULL SERIAL NUMBER, "E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1937 [S@3o'clock]
    G 11803 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps/ Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
    G 12806 June 1938 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,C, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in shield] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1938
    G 167XX September 1938
    G 325XX February 1939
    G 34140 Unknown /Type 1 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"G" MAT 1937
    G 347XX February 1939
    G 35223 February 1939
    G 38551 February 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /"LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
    G 386XX February 1939
    G 38867 February 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 405XX Unknown 1939 /"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
    G 40766 March 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Barrel flat "C" MAT 1938
    G 42XXX March 1939
    G 42570 March 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Barrel flat "A" MAT 1937 / [Grip Flat unmarked/unnumbered]
    G 45078 April 1939
    G 453XX April 1939
    G 512XX May 1939 /Type 1 band / Barrel flat-MAT 1938
    G 56624 June 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /
    G 57353 Unknown /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 61474 June 1939
    G 63627 June 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 67719 July 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver / Barrel flat-"C" MAT 1938
    G 6913X July 1939 /Type 1 receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    G 76328 Unknown 1939
    G 77597 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel flat-"LY" SACM 1938
    G 78767 August 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver
    G 80708 September 1939 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps /"LK5" MARKED stock
    G 85722 September 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver
    G 91765 October 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver
    G 92078 October 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Bolt stem-UNPREFIXED #414
    G 95914 October 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver [Grip Flat marked-"18"/NO "LK" on reworked stock][S@3o'clock]
    G 97504 October 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"AS" MAS 1939
    G 98738 October 1939
    G 98904 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps

    H 4720 Unknown 1939 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939
    H 8872 December 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"A" MAS 1939
    H 117XX December 1939-"E",L,M,G, proof
    H 12757 December 1939 /Type 2 MODIFIED receiver / "LK5" MARKED stock / [Grip Flat marked-"41", 5mm case][S@3o'clock]
    H 1397X December 1939
    H 17066 December 1939 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    H 243XX January 1940
    H 29251 Unknown 1940
    H 33057 January 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1937 / [Grip Flat marked-"11", 5mm case]
    H 34020 January 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Barrel flat-"AS" MAS 1939
    H 36706 unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock [Grip Flat marked-"10", in 5mm case]
    H 38566 February 1940
    H 45671 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
    H 49756 February 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver
    H 62535 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1939
    H 63518 March 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M, CIRCLE "C", stamps
    H 637XX March 1940
    H 6399X March 1940
    H 72756 Unknown / Type 1 receiver
    H 73333 April 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom flat-"A" MAS 1939
    H 74410 April 1940 /Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom flat-"A" MAT 1939 / [Grip Flat marked-"2", 6mm case]
    H 74991 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
    H 753XX April 1940
    H 77116 April 1940 / Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
    H 79037 April 1940
    H 80324 Unknown 1940 / Type 1 band & Type 2 MODIFIED receiver-"E",L,M,(?), stamps / "LK(?)" MARKED stock / [Grip Flat marked-"31", 5mm case]
    H 80671 April 1940
    H 82477 April 1940
    H 8254X April 1940
    H 82932 April 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    H 91525 Unknown 1940 / Barrel flat-MAT 1940
    H 963XX April 1940
    H 96738 MAY 1940 /Type 1 band & receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / PERHAPS a DELAYED ACCEPTANCE rifle, as the J 6187 would otherwise be antecedent

    J 3823 May 1940
    J 3882 May 1940 / Type 1 band & Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    J 6187 April 1940 [?] Out of sequence/ see H 96738 & J 3823/3882, above.
    J 8222 May 1940 / Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps
    J 8254 May 1940
    J 18920 May 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / "LK5" MARKED stock
    J 20233 June 1940
    J 21044 Unknown /Type 1 band & Type 2 Factory receiver-"E",L,M,G, stamps / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Barrel bottom flats-"A" MAS 1940

    K 2043 Unknown 1940 /Type 2 Factory receiver-"E",L,M,"MF", stamps
    K 2502 May 1940
    K 3184 Unknown 1940 /-"E",L,M,"MF", stamps [?BEECH STOCK appears to have original Serial Number?]
    K 3462 Unknown / Barrel Bottom flat-"RG" MAS 1940
    K 7227 June 1940 /"MF" Mfg./"E"
    K 11569 June 1940 /"MF" Mfg.
    K 12185 June 1940 /"MF" Mfg./"E",L,M, stamps
    K 13089 June 1940 /Type 1 band & Type 2 FACTORY receiver-"E",L,M,"MF" stamps / Barrel bottom flat-"A" MF 1940
    K 22014 Unknown /Type 2 FACTORY reveiver-"E",L,M,"MF" stamps/Type 1 sight base
    K 25980 June 1940 /Type 3a band & Type 2 receiver / Barrel bottom flat-"A" MAT 1940

    L 2421 Unknown /Type 2 receiver / Barrel Bottom flat-"C" MAT 1940
    L 35XX June 1940
    ************************************************** *******************
    The "MYSTERY" rifles are eccentric to serial-production. They are divided only upon the basis of whether they have been stamped with an un-prefix number, or are sterile/devoid of any numbers. The "Sterile" examples uniquely exhibit improper headspace. (Three of the six reported examples will not close on "GO") Aside from this defect, both "Numbered" and "Sterile" units are possessed of the following anomalies:
    1] They are unissued; perhaps unfired.
    2] They are a collection of near-Armistice parts, some 'pickled'/acid-etched and not 'stoved'/blackened; some appearing to have been defective/rejected parts.
    3] The quality of assemblage is not as consistent, nor to the standard of serial-production examples.
    4] The bayonets are from earlier rifles, or replacements of a latter-day.
    5] None are import marked.
    6] Some have incorrect sight-leafs, and will not shoot to point of aim.
    7] They all have 'Type 2' factory receivers, some of the later type.
    8] Some have a 'sticky' bolt-cap, which requires detenting the striker, and the use of a gripping tool, for removal.

    MYSTERY STERILE:
    [A] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" & ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1939 / Receiver left flat marked "MAS Mle 1936" on partially milled surface [banner milled]
    [b] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / UN-PREFIXED #4039 on bolt-stem /
    [C] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight /
    [D] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940
    [E] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"C" MAT 1940
    [F] Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight

    Exclusive to the "Numbered" examples:
    1] The font of the numbering to very different than that which is used upon the serialized rifles.
    2] The bolt-stems, when marked, are numbered upon the outboard side.

    MYSTERY NUMBERED
    # 34 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER]
    # 171 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 1 band /Type 1 rear sight
    # 282 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940
    # 320 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band
    # 360 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAS 1940 [Barreled-receiver was never "Stoved"] Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER
    # 420 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Bottom barrel flat-"C" MAT 1940 [Barreled-receiver & Bolt were never "stoved"] Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER
    # 432 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"?" / Bottom barrel flat-"A" MAT 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER. Non-Matching die set used for the "2"]
    # 486 Unknown /Type 2 receiver & Type 2 band /Type 1 rear sight / Barrel top-"E" ["G" in circle] / Bottom barrel flat-"RG" MAS 1940 [Outboard bolt-stem NUMBERED TO RECEIVER]
    ************************************************** *******************
    TIR REDUIT .22 calibre, full size MAS 1936 training rifle, made for and accepted by the Vichy military. By all indications this production run appears to be a minor footnote, with 1,000 units being fabricated per month, at least during the first four months. But it is the earliest documented series to incorporate all of the design changes that make the post-Liberation "script prefix" blocks unique from the pre-June 25, 1940 Armastice, MAS 36s.
    Tir reduit 5.5 L:
    # 1432 September 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine followed /Type 2 upper band [Button cross-pin doubler]
    # 2721 October 1941
    # 3362 November 1941 / Type 2 rear sight assembly / [S@3o'clock]
    # 3472 November 1941 /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band /Type 1 bayonet with two (2) digit serial number on end cap. [The Barrel flat is sterile/not marked in any way]
    # 4439 December 1941 /Type 2 receiver & rear sight assembly /Type 2 upper band
    # 14046 Unknown /Type 2 receiver, rear sight assembly & magazine follower /Type 2 upper band
    ################################################## ##################################

    K 31567 Unknown /1940 barrel
    K 319XX October 1944 /1940 barrel/Type 2 rear sight base/ Type 1 sight leaf & slider
    K 32430 Unknown /Type 2 MODIFIED rear sight base
    K 45054 Unknown /MAS 1940 barrel
    K 60166 Unknown /"A" MAS 1940 barrel
    K 61223 Unknown / C.R.39 receiver
    K 63785 Unknown (1944?) /"A" MAS 1940 barrel/Type 2 MODIFIED rear base & sight/Type 2 lower band/Walnut stocks/[Pictures below by '28 mosin']
    K 94536 Unknown (1945?) /Type 2 receiver/"I(?)-Y" MAS 1945

    L 27313 Unknown / Barrel bottom flat-"AS" MAS 1945
    L 65371 Unknown / 1945 barrel
    L 65693 Unknown 1945 /Type 2 receiver / Type 2 rear sight / Walnut stock
    L 72943 Unknown /Type 2 receiver / MAT 1945 barrel / Type 2 rear sight
    L 910XX Unknown 1945 /Type 2 receiver / 1945 barrel

    M 7977 Unknown 1945 /
    M 22001 Unknown / Matching Script S/N on Type 2 (stamped) mag plate & triggerguard
    M 33001 February [year not discernable] Type 1 mag plate / Type 2 triggerguard / Walnut stock
    M 435XX March [year not discernable]
    M 61474 Unknown / 1946 barrel
    M 79798 June 1946 / Walnut stock / Matching Script S/N on Type 2 (stamped) mag plate & triggerguard
    M 87195 July 1946 / [S@3o'clock]
    M 88590 July 1946 / [S@3o'clock]

    N 23738 December 1946 /Type 3 lower band / Stamped triggerguard / beech stocks / 1946 barrel / black enamel finish
    N 55448 September 1947 /Type 4 band / Stamped mag plate & triggerguard / Beech stocks

    P 435XX Unknown / Barrel flat-"AS" MAT 1949

    Q 306X April 1950
    Q 9263 Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured
    Q 20040 Unknown / 'LG 48' Configured
    Q 59326 Unknown 1951 / Barrel-MAS 1951 / "E",B,G, / Beech stock
    Q 73579 Unknown

    FH 12811 July 1952
    FH 600XX February 1953 / 'LG 48' Configured
    ################################################## ##################################

    MAS Mle 1936 C.R.39 Carbine

    Cursive/Script "F" Series:
    F 15XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Walnut fore-stocks / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish /
    F 19XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Barrel dated 1940 / Walnut fore-stock / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish / fabric sling
    F 19XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Beech fore-stocks / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Black enamel finish / fabric sling
    F 54XX Unknown / (Receiver only) / Parkerized (?)
    F 194XX Unknown / Type 1 band / Beech fore-stock / 'bare' aluminum butt-stock / Blued finish (?)

    Roman/Latin block-font "F" Series:
    F 305XX Unknown / Type 3 band / Beech fore-stock / 'green rubber' coated butt-stock / Barrel-flats "CS" MAS 1952 / Parkerized finish / leather sling
    F 32947 Unknown / Bare-stock / Kit assemblage
    F 338XX Unknown / Type 3 band / Beech fore-stock / 'green rubber' coated butt-stock / vertical serial number / Parkerized finish / leather sling
    ################################################## ##################################

    MAS Mle 1936-51

    F 115XX Unknown 1953
    F 20033 November 1953 / Beech stock
    F 22126 Unknown 1953
    F 22705 January 1954 / Beech stock
    F 600XX October 1956 / 1963 barrel / Walnut stocks [?]
    F 62568 July 1955
    F 733XX December 1955 / Beech stocks
    F 75453 January 1956 / Beech stocks
    F 92681 July 1956 / "E",B,G, / Beech stocks
    F 95172 September 1956 / Beech stocks
    F 99218 October 1956 / Walnut stocks [?]

    G 4141 Unknown 1957 / Beech stocks
    G 16469 August 1957 / Beech stocks
    G 19051 October 1957
    G 20781 October 1957
    G 20782 October 1957
    G 24213 August 1957 / Beech stocks
    G 27027 Unknown 1958 / Beech stocks
    G 32453 April 1958 / Beech stocks
    G 42075 September 1958 / "E" / Beech stocks
    Vive La République Française, le Lebel et le poilu
    Verdun 1916: "Ils ne Passeront pas" "On les aura!"
    Fusil d'Infanterie Modèle 1886 Modifié 1893 dit "Lebel"

    Vive le Pinard !
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axfM1sFqIK0

  11. Thank You to 1886lebel For This Useful Post:


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