M91 long rifle

[mattgunguy]

Got this a while back as a gift from a friend. He bought it mail order back in 1961 for $5.00, & never shot it or even cleaned the cosmoline out. Just sat is the corner of his game room. Gave it to me, since well, I like guns. especially old ones. But I don't know much about it.

















Shoots good though.

Information

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[Eaglelord17]

Wow that is one of the earliest M91 Carcano Rifles I have ever seen. 1893! The bolt is mismatched that being said, after the first bit of years of production they stopped numbering bolts and treated them as interchangeable. Made in the second year of production at Torino definitely a cool find (Torino only made them from 1892-1900).

Definitely a cool piece, I would start detailing more about it, but I would have to dig up my book, so maybe later tonight. Thanks for sharing!

[mattgunguy]

Thank you. This has become one of my favorite rifles. Right after my finn capture N.E.W. M91 & before the ak-74. Such a pleasure to shoot & definitely underrated in the accuracy department.

Hard to beat an old milsurp.

[Eaglelord17]

So some more information now that I have some Gin in me and found my book. So as mentioned made in Torino in 1893 which was second year of production however it was manufactured early in 1893, the lowest SN found for Torino in 1893 is P3184 and the highest found for 1893 is Q5439. The total number of M91s made at Torino is 184,000. The stock/rifle was repaired/and or refurbished at Roma Arsenal in I think 1931. The reason being is the big roundel on the stock, I believe above the Roma word in the center there is a 'IX' which in roman numerals is 9 and since the Italians started counting in roman numerals in 1922 would place it at 1931 (it is hard to tell though, I am having a tough time reading any of it). The stock is also a replacement from that rework as told by the overstamped numbers however it is correct in the sense that is how it was issued after that point.

The PG on the bolt handle is a inspectors mark, though I don't know who. The crown on the bolt handle is a acceptance marking, specifically listed in my book as 'Crown proof mark'. The BP on the receiver is another inspectors mark. The Crown beside is actually a 'Crown with a DL under it', which is listed as a likely Roma Arsenal inspection stamp (which would make sense when paired with that stock). The PO on the barrel facet under the '1893' is used to indicate the type of steel used in the barrels manufacture. The reason the Italians would do this is they quality of steel could vary depending on what was available at the time, more common letterings for this is 'AT' and 'FP'.

These rifle can shoot very well provided they are given the right ammo. The problem is the right ammo is exceptionally difficult to get for these rifles as they did some very odd things with the bores diameter and rifling. There was even quite a few international competitions won by people using Carcanos in the early 20th century, two examples I will use is in the 1902 world competition in the prone position a competitor named Conti won 1st place with the M91 Carcano. In the 1904 world competition a competitor named Bonicelli got first place in standing.

That is about all the information I can provide, it is definitely a cool rifle which as been there and done that.

[mattgunguy]

Thank you. Most interesting information. Like most people I had never really given much thought to the Carcano rifles. You'd think being from Dallas and a gun buff, I would have at least given them a passing glance. When my landlord gave me this one I got the Carcano bug. I've been quietly browsing the shops here for some carbines to keep it company.

I've had very good luck with some reloads I've been using. Hornady 6.5mm .264'' 140gr ELD match bullets for 1-8'' twist. On Prvi brass with CCI primers & 30.3 to 33.1 grains of IMR 4064. getting 2-3'' groups at 100 yards on a bag.

[Eaglelord17]

Most people haven't given much thought to the Carcano. It just doesn't seem to inspire the same amount of interest as say Lee Enfields or Mausers. Still very efficient rifles in their own right, they are more or less the most average military service rifle there is. It wouldn't be my first choice to take to combat, but that being said it meets the minimum criteria I have for a combat bolt action. Some odd features here and there, but for the most part it is just average. There is a fair number of variations and manufacturers, and if someone wanted to, you could have a fairly serious collection just trying to hunt down the main models, then there is the sub-models and manufacturers if you got more interested.

[mattgunguy]

I like this so much for the recoil. It's given my daughters who are both 12 the opportunity to learn marksmanship on a real "rifle". They have both been shooting .22's, Ar-15's, & Ak-74's for several years. But the big .30-06, 7.92x57, .303, & 7.62x54r rifles are just beyond their physical abilities to take the recoil. So the 6.5mm round was a blessing in that department.

[WASATCH CHARLIE]

NICE MODEL 91 !!! mine is one of the LAST original model1891s made..dated 1918. on flat on receiver. serial # GM 4874. mismatched bolt ser.#GM 8430.
This one has the 3 dots and the Greek ''E'' on receiver indicating 6.5x54 MAN. SCHO. Caliber. in good + condition with matching serial number . some Trench Art on stock....
until I actually started ''enjoying'' these fine,very well made firearms,i was as a lot of people,believed that they were ''cheap-junk''. Glad I have been ''Enlightened.
have a ''like new'' model 41. both fine firearms.
WC

[DocAV]

Very nice find. A dew extra Points:
1. Serialing of Bolts ended in WW I...with wartime production, it was found that the interchangeability of bolts was so good, that there was no need to laboriously number them

2. PO Leopoldina Hutte ("Poldi Steelworks") Kladno, Bohemia, Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Steelworks founded by a German family, the wife's name was Leopoldina, nick- named "Poldi"...Hence the shortened name.

Poldi steel was specified in the original M91 designs etc ( see "il '91" by Simondi, Belogi & Grimaldi,, Olympia Ed. 1970).
Only later did OTO-Vickers-Terni Steel works supply the FA Terni with steel to a similar composition. Poldi also supplied the steel in the 1930s for the first Bren Guns (both in ZB and at Enfield.)
Poldi still exists as a specialist steel maker, and a renowned Czech Football team ( Both in Kladno, Czech Republic.)

AT Ansaldo-Terni ( an associate of OTO-V-Terni); FP ? Fonderie Piemontesi ( a Turin Steel Works, associated with FIAT)

3. 1918 was NOT the last year of M91 Production, Beretta did a small run in the early 1930s, just before the Abyssinian War ( Oct.35--March 36).

4. "Roma" was the Officine Riparazioni Artigleria, which under the mark "OR" made M91s during 1917 and 18. It continued as a "Artillery" repair service till the end of WW II.

The "Artillery" service in Italy controlled ALL Ordnance manufacture and repairs, from SA through large calibre Guns. In Pre-Smokeless times, the Artillery Service Officer was the best scientifically trained technician in any European Army.

Sad about the "Mixed Bolt" but after WW I, this was the Norm.

Doc AV

[WASATCH CHARLIE]

HELLO DOC,
Followed your posts for years on too many sites to disagree with you to point #3.
that is why I said ''original''. 1891-1918. then, in the early 1930's yes there was that short run/////
there are NO model 91 rifles dated from 1919 to the 1930s short run. that is all I meant.
just a point of fact. And you being a person who enjoys the 1904 P.M. in 6.5x58mm as I do, I mean no disrespect. WC