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Thread: The M1 Carbine concept fully developed

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    Really Senior Member imarangemaster's Avatar
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    The M1 Carbine concept fully developed

    The M1 Carbine was developed in 1941 as a PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) to replace the .45 pistol for non-combat troops who did not need to be armed with a full size rifle like the 1903 or M1 Garand. It was so successful, and so popular, it became a front line weapon. This popularity continued into Vietnam.



    In World War II:




    In Korea and Vietnam:



    This light weight, wood and steel carbine was so successful and popular into the 1960s, that Bill Ruger wanted a rifle like it in the new .223/5.56 caliber. Late in the 1960s, he hired L. James Sullivan, who was the primary design engineer for Armalite in their AR15 program, to develop the light weight 223 carbine he envisioned.

    Rather than scale up the M1 carbine like the Gustafsen prototype, Sullivan decided to scale down the the tremendously reliable M14icon instead. In 1972, the Ruger Mini-14 was introduced. It was so successful, in 1987, he introduced the Mini-30. Ironically, it was Bill Ruger himself who stonewalled further fine tuning of the rifles. Finally, in about 2005, after Ruger died, the vastly improved "580" series was introduced.

    These rifles have filled a slot that previously only the M1 Carbine was available for: A light weight traditional wood and steel carbine for home and ranch defense, and even as a medium game hunting rifle. The M1 Carbine concept is still alive and well, as you can see. Besides my 6 digit Inland, 1950s rebuild, you can see my Rugers. My 583 blued Mini-14 is an M1 carbine with a "stiffy" and my 583 series Mini-30 is an M1 carbine on Viagra.



    If the M1 Carbine had stayed in production as a commercial firearm after WW 2, I believe it would have eventually developed into a similar weapon on its own. Bill Ruger just picked up the ball and filled the void, continuing to develop the concept with a more effective and versatile cartridge.
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    Last edited by imarangemaster; 03-29-2018 at 05:12 PM.

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    Really Senior Member firstflabn's Avatar
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    One has to read all the way to p. 3 of War Baby! to see that carbine development began with the recommendation of the Chiefs of Infantry and Artillery. If anyone has a similar recommendation from the SOS chiefs, it would be interesting to see it. Further, the 1 Apr 42 T/O for an infantry battalion shows 292 carbines. I'm pretty sure there would be a consensus that an infantry battalion qualifies as a combat unit. How exactly did the carbine become successful or popular two months before production reached triple digits?

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    Really Senior Member imarangemaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by firstflabn View Post
    One has to read all the way to p. 3 of War Baby! to see that carbine development began with the recommendation of the Chiefs of Infantry and Artillery. If anyone has a similar recommendation from the SOS chiefs, it would be interesting to see it. Further, the 1 Apr 42 T/O for an infantry battalion shows 292 carbines. I'm pretty sure there would be a consensus that an infantry battalion qualifies as a combat unit. How exactly did the carbine become successful or popular two months before production reached triple digits?
    Good point!

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    Really Senior Member Bruce McAskill's Avatar
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    The Mini 30 came about because Bill Ruger had boasted that his company was coming out with a modern version of the M14icon in .308. He even took deposits on the rifles. Well turned out that they could not make a version of the M14 that would hold together or pass legal problems patient wise, no one seemed to know which it was back then. But rumors were that there were design problems that could be over come. So he had the Mini 14 updated to a .30 caliber round and it was a success but it was not an M14. This was not to fill a void but was to save face for him and his company.

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    Really Senior Member imarangemaster's Avatar
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    Yep, you are right Bruce. It was the Ruger XGI. only a few were actually made. While Ruger does great investment casting, they needed a forged receiver for 7.62x51 Nato rounds. The Ruger was supposed to be a low cost alternative to the M1Aicon, but a forged receiver and other parts made it almost as expensive. It was a decent rifle. I handled one when I was a Rangemaster for the PD and went to the Shot Show sometimes in the 1980s. IIRC, it used M14 magazines.... I also seem to remember it had an adjustable gas block.
    Last edited by imarangemaster; 03-29-2018 at 10:10 PM.

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    Really Senior Member RCS's Avatar
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    Winchester Lightweight Rifle 224 Winchester cal

    I always liked the Winchester Lightweight rifle which looks like a larger M1icon carbine. Very simple internal parts and the short stroke pistol appeared to work well with the 224 Winchester. It did have an aluminum alloy composition trigger guard and magazine.

    total weight of loaded rifle was listed at 5.5 lbs

    length of barrel was 20 inches and was fluted

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    Really Senior Member imarangemaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCS View Post
    I always liked the Winchester Lightweight rifle which looks like a larger M1icon carbine. Very simple internal parts and the short stroke pistol appeared to work well with the 224 Winchester. It did have an aluminum alloy composition trigger guard and magazine.

    total weight of loaded rifle was listed at 5.5 lbs

    length of barrel was 20 inches and was flutedAttachment 92074Attachment 92073
    You could say that the Mini-14 is also an execution of the .224 WLMR concept. The lightweight barrel of the .224 WLMR caused the same accuracy issues after heating up, just at the light barrels on the pre-580 series Minis did.

    Interesting 1972 article about the "New" Mini-14 by Jeff Cooper. He compared it to the M1 Carbine and thought of it as an improved M1 Carbine in ways.






    The .224 Winchester Light Military Rifler:





    My homage to the .224 WLMR:

    Last edited by imarangemaster; 03-29-2018 at 11:00 PM.

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    Really Senior Member imarangemaster's Avatar
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    Gordon Ingram scaled up the M1icon Carbine into his SAM rifles. SAM-1 5.56, SAM-2 7.62x39, and SAM-3 7.62x51. It truly is a scaled up M1 carbine.



    Inside the Ingram SAM, at Gunlab - The Firearm BlogThe Firearm Blog

    Also, a better look at the SAM-1

    Gordam Ingram | GunLab
    Last edited by imarangemaster; 03-30-2018 at 09:28 AM.

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    Really Senior Member Sunray's Avatar
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    The Ruger XGI never made it past being announced at the SHOT Show. Ruger couldn't get it to work. Mind you, neither it, the Mini-30 nor 14 are even remotely like an M1icon Carbine. None of 'em shoot anywhere near as well as any Carbine.
    Spelling and Grammar count!

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    Really Senior Member imarangemaster's Avatar
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    There is a great Youtube video of actually shooting Ruger XGI. It was found in a warehouse when they were moving.

    Last edited by imarangemaster; 03-31-2018 at 04:04 PM.

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