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Thread: Israeli No4 T rifle origin? Faz or BSA?

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  1. #1
    Member 303kiwi's Avatar
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    Israeli No4 T rifle origin? Faz or BSA?

    Hello all,

    I'm interested to find out any info on a Rifle I've recently acquired.

    It has some receiver markings 'blacked' or ground off the reciever.

    Any opinions on the maker or origin of the rifle would be appreciated!

    I hope the photos below work;

















    I've tried to get pictures of every mark i can find, I'm confused as some marks look like a BSA 'B' and some seem to be Faz.

    What do you lot think?
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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Don't know much about them except your front pad set up looks vastly different to my 1944 BSA M47C T (see pic) is there any markings on the back two flats as there should be a mark on each one the resident experts will surely be here soon the lack of any definitive marks may or may not be a good sign.
    Nice wood though.
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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303kiwi View Post
    Hello all,

    I'm interested to find out any info on a Rifle I've recently acquired.

    It has some receiver markings 'blacked' or ground off the reciever.

    Any opinions on the maker or origin of the rifle would be appreciated!

    I hope the photos below work;

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...99476716-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...27838905-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...15373433-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...73376315-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...89257696-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...84350642-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...12512133-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...74528538-1.jpg

    I've tried to get pictures of every mark i can find, I'm confused as some marks look like a BSA 'B' and some seem to be Faz.

    What do you lot think?
    I think it's a Bitzer and quite recently assembled.
    "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." W.L.S.C..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Surpmil View Post
    I think it's a Bitzer and quite recently assembled.

    Changed opinion in light of best assessment in Post #8 below.

    Last edited by jmoore; 04-19-2018 at 02:58 AM. Reason: Roger Payne's input

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303kiwi View Post
    Hello all,

    I'm interested to find out any info on a Rifle I've recently acquired.

    It has some receiver markings 'blacked' or ground off the reciever.

    Any opinions on the maker or origin of the rifle would be appreciated!

    I hope the photos below work;

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...99476716-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...27838905-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...15373433-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...73376315-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...89257696-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...84350642-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...12512133-1.jpg

    https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...74528538-1.jpg

    I've tried to get pictures of every mark i can find, I'm confused as some marks look like a BSA 'B' and some seem to be Faz.

    What do you lot think?
    It looks like what you are taking as a BSA "B" is actually the Long Branch logo, on the band for instance.

    Agreed, looks to be recently assembled with NOS woodwork.

    Still, if its been assembled and bedded correctly with a decent bore, it should shoot very well,so just enjoy it.

    Wood looks like it would benefit from a Linseed feed...
    Last edited by mrclark303; 04-18-2018 at 03:56 AM.

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    Really Senior Member Maxwell Smart's Avatar
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    I think early BSA made rifle.

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Hopefully the sting was not to harsh for the purchaser...................!

  12. #8
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    It's a run of the mill 1942 BSA Shirley rifle that was set up as a T by the Israelis. Not sure how it came about but its barrelled action, together with a small number of other Israeli set up rifles (or what was left of them) ended up in Parker-Hale's basement stores, from where they were acquired by on old dealer friend of mine. This particular one I had off him & assembled it with the NOS wood that you see on it. The Israeli markings were ground or filed off by my pal before he realised quite what he'd got! I never rated it as it was a post WW2 non Commonwealth set up anyway, & so out of my sphere of interest, but the late Bruce Gorton got all excited about it, in spite of me trying to put him off, & so it went over to NZicon where I see it still resides. The scope I bought, also in the nineties, from the US, when there was a few about. It might have been Numrich, or somebody like that. The furniture you see on the rifle was simply what came to hand at the time, no more mystery to it than that.

    The 'recent set up' was actually done in about 1996, give or take a year or two, so it's been looked after in the meantime.

    Hopefully that clarifies matters a little......

    ATB
    Last edited by Roger Payne; 04-18-2018 at 08:16 AM. Reason: typo

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    Michael: Glad you posted the pic's here and now you have some of the story.
    Did you get it focused using my instructions ??
    Numrich had a few of the scopes in the cans back in the 90's. Breakeyp can give you the date on that part of the story.
    Also, if anyone has any info on the late Bruce Gorton's son DEON GORTON I'd appreciate hearing from them via a PM.

  15. #10
    Really Senior Member Frederick303's Avatar
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    The major import of these scopes was in SARCO. Warren, that is where the decrepit scope I sent you came from.

    Springfield Sporters had a few of the scope mounts in the late 1980s, which were cast Bronze if I recall correctly.

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