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Thread: No.4(T) Rifles and the wartime records of Holland & Holland

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  1. #11
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    I was not trying to upset anyone just observe certain aspects of the rifle in the pics the OP supplied as these rifles have been to timbucktoo and back who knows what happened to them this one may have just had the TR stamped on it then never got completed until an enterprising person perhaps decided to do it either in service or out of service.
    I would tend to go out of service as it would be a plucky armourer to try and buck the system although they may have done it up on their smoko breaks!!!

    That may be it Surpmil perhaps explains why the certain denoting stamp common to S51 factory completed "T"s is not there on the flat well there is one there but.......!

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  3. #12
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    Roger Payne's Avatar
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    I may be wrong (ask my wife!), but I thought the TR was applied at the BSA Shirley factory in Solihull to rifles selected for T conversion. I would therefore not expect to see it on a rifle that originated from another factory. Indeed, it is not present on even BSA rifles of early manufacture, such as those dated 1941.

    I would not say that the large atypical body sidewall T necessarily meant that the rifle must be bogus, as early converted rifles were not typically marked, although some were retrospectively marked, presumably either by judicious armourers or at the time of a FTR. If so marked, the procedure would have been carried out using whatever letter stamps were available at the time, so the large T may or may not be genuine.

    IMHO the front body pad is off a much later rifle - if I were pushed I'd say off a BSA 1944 rifle, most likely. There looks to be traces of a different finish on the pad to that on the receiver. The finish on the screws is also different. The screws through the rear pad show a very definite 'margin' around the heads, which is not at all typical of pads fitted in the UK. The circumference of the screw heads where they meet the countersink in the rear pad - the 'join' if you like between screw & pad is generally so nicely done as to be almost imperceptible on H&H products - just a barely discernible line. I would assume the screw heads were originally left proud of the pad surface & the whole lot then milled flat by Hollands' machinists. I would admit this is not the case with Canadianicon conversions, but this one is of Britishicon origin.

    It is improbable that the wood is all original as the forend is beech & the butt is walnut.

    I hope the OP will not take offence at these observations - that is all they are - just MHO.

    Last edited by Roger Payne; 11-01-2018 at 10:00 AM.

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