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    Member Pierre's Avatar
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    Reloading for the Swiss Rifles

    Withy your kind permission, Gents.
    This first post was originally posted by my Son, Latigo St.Marie on the SRMB section of the Swissicon Rifles website.
    .
    I'm the retired patriarch of the clan and one of the two co-founders of the SRMB (Swiss Rifles dot com)
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I'm posting this here so it's easier for me to find and access when I send it to the ones who email asking about this.
    I'm also going to add to what Dad had originally since I'm getting deeper into this all now with the zfk55.
    Added: Keep in mind that new equipment, powders, primers and technology have appeared since this was originally written.
    You have to apply this logically keeping in mind that there are new innovations since this was written.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From my Father:


    My "platform" is the basis upon which all of my load data begins, and it's NOT that hard. You can analyze, illustrate, debate and tweak till the cows come home but it all ends with one single base. Your case preparation.
    My credentials? 45 years of reloading and 32 of those devoted to the 7.5 Swiss cartridge. Load data of mine that was in use long before the manuals figured out that their own data was erroneous and based on the wrong rifle. Do I have any magic? Absolutely not. Is there anything mysterious or technically difficult to understand about how I do it? Absolutely not. Have I varied one iota from my original

    "platform" in case preparation? Absolutely not.... and yet I see a supposed mystique surrounding the reloading for this cartridge evoking all kinds of semi confusing answers that are completely unnecessary.

    I won't argue with anyone about presses or dies. This is what works for me, take it or leave it. Want to use a different press or die set?

    Go for it. After all these years and many thousands of successful rounds downrange, I'm not changing anything, however, advances in technology may now dictate other wise to you.

    A) Whatever kind of press you have, using RCBS dies or your own choice, run the ram all the way up. Turn your sizing/decapping die all the way down against the shellholder. Lower the ram and turn the die down another 1/2 turn or so, maybe even less, but make sure that when you run the ram back up the ram "cams over" at the top of the stroke. This is "full length sizing". I don't want to hear about all of the variables in die setting possibilities with all of the other cartridges you use. For the 7.5 Swiss, make your press cam-over at the top of the stroke to begin. Find a better way for youself later? Why not.

    Neck sizing? Forget it. After very few times fired in a k31 your case won't be chambering anyway. Even if you do neck size, your case will have to be hand-fed into the chamber and indexed to exactly the same "o'clock" position every time to be effective. Not all k31
    chambers are identical. I do it with a few of my commercial rifles with some success. 7.5 Swiss? Forget it. Its an exercise in futility that won't shade my loads anyway, and there are dozens of k31 owners that are now believers.

    I've used and have a myriad of presses, both fixed and progressive over the years and my mainstay for load data development is the Forster Coax press. Though I have a spread of other mfg's dies, RCBS is all I use for the 7.5 Swiss. I currently have 6 sets.

    B) Set your decapper to the proper depth allowing just a bit of the tip to appear through the bottom of the shellholder. Screw it in too deeply and you'll bend the shaft and ruin a case. Lock the die into place.

    1) Use a case tumbler or a washing machine to get your brass clean. If its a washing machine, put all the brass in a pillowcase, tie the top and wash them in hot water with a good dishwashing soap. Shake all the water out and let them dry overnight on a towel.

    2) TTL.... Trim To Length. Our spec will be 2.179 or less. I suggest you don't trim much shorter than 2.160. eam and champfer the case mouths. If you don't have that little tool, buy one.

    3) Lubing: Use a case lube/pad combo or the new sprays which I consider adequate. Plain old Castor Oil is our choice. If its a pad, use your fingers to spread the lube evenly over the surface of the pad and roll the cases completely. Use your finger and tip the case mouth
    down and roll that too. Don't get lube on the shoulders. This type of lube is nocompressible and can dent your case shoulders upon sizing. Use a mouth brush to get inside, but use it sparingly.

    Spray: Using a cookie sheet, line it with aluminum foil and lay your cases down on their sides with all the mouths facing toward you. Holding the can at a 45 degree angle, spray from the rear of the cases toward the mouth allowing spray to enter the case mouths. Using the flat of your hand, roll the cases around and hit the case mouths once more very lightly. If it's to be Castor Oil, use it sparingly. It goes a long way.
    Spray lube and Castor Oil are not of the non-compressible variety so you won't have a problem with the case shoulders.

    4) Lightly coat the inside of your die with spray lube. Do NOT do this with paste lube. Put a case in the shell holder and run it up firmly but gently. If you feel any resistance, STOP! Lower the ram and check the depth of your decapper. Check to make sure the inside your die was actually polished at the factory. This is not at all unheard of. I've gotten 3 of these over the years and they will not allow you to run the case in.

    Assuming your ram cammed-over at the top of the stroke, you should now have a properly sized case that will chamber without any real resistance in your chamber.

    Have to hit your bolthandle with the palm of your hand to get it to chamber? Projectile seating aside, it won't be because you didn't size your case correctly.
    I've read plenty of rationale on chambering, and (without telling you how many Swiss rifles I have) None of mine chamber other than smoothly and easily, without rapping.

    5) Clean your primer pockets with the appropriate tool. I use the small, formed wire brush in a plastic handle meant for this procedure. Seat your primers dead flush with the case base.

    6) Projectile seating: It is not at all necessary to crimp for the 7.5 Swiss rifles. Crimping introduces a variable that you don't need. The grip of the case mouth (neck tension) on the bullet will not be identical every single time, thus, the unwanted variable. GP11 is crimped for the MG42 and earlier models.

    To determine proper seat depth for any given projectile, keep in mind that the measurement is only valid when the contact of the bullet's ogive and the lands/grooves is determined.
    Your manual says OAL is 3.020?... maybe for that bullet that they used, but only for that bullet profile, not all others. Projectile profiles vary from mfg to mfg. So how do you do it?



    There are any number of ways, but I've always used the same methodology. Take a sized, empty and unprimed, uncharged case, start a bullet into the case mouth leaving it protruding further than is apparently correct. Place it in the rifle's chamber by hand, ease the bolt into full battery and "smartly" eject it. Measure that OAL and seat it 2 to 4 thousandths deeper. This is a good start. Later, when you've become more deeply involved in data gathering, you may want to play with seat depths to find the sweet spot for your cartridge. I have specifics I use regularly.

    Yes, there are other ways. If you like your way better .......use it.
    Once you determine your chambered OAL for that bullet, screw your seating die down until the mouth of an empty case stops the descent and back it out a full turn. Lock the die in place and back out the seater.

    That method is only going to work for one bullet profile, and it its a hollow point its not going to be accurate anway since not all meplats are the same even in the same box. Your bullet seater should be indexed behind the tip and on the ogive, not on the tip of the bullet. A Sierra 175 MK is not going to be the same as a Berger 175 VLD at all. Both should index on the ogive, but not all ogives are the same distance from either the case mouth or the bullet tip. If you use just the tip you're going to have two completely different freebores for the same caliber, weight and charge with likely two different results.

    Now measure it and decide how far off the lands you want to begin. Note that figure and begin working out your load, adjusting seat depth as you go. But remember that was only for that bullet profile. Change profiles and you're back to square one. Find load data that might be in a trusted manual or proven data from the board. Always begin with a lesser load even if the data you find "appears" to be proven. Bear in mind that all Swiss rifles prefer a very close seating to the lands.

    "Stand up and shoot it like a man!"
    Only if Jeff Cooper is watching, otherwise use a bench rest when developing your load data. Use the same rest or bagging methodology every time you shoot. Remove all variables from your data gathering..... and that's the secret, gents. Consistency Consistency.
    Ok, the final step I consider important if you're striving to squeeze every ounce of accuracy out of your Swiss rifles is..............

    Accurizing Your Swiss Rifle by Pierre St

    Does it work? You'd have to ask those who have used the methodology, and there are a lot of them now. I have read a few comments about how it "didn't work for me. A waste of time". It probably was, for those folks. They didn't follow the process correctly and most
    likely were shooting unproven loads with improperly sized cases or stocks with an unnoticed, inherent problem. All of my rifles are accurized, and every one of them improved forthwith.

    To wrap this up, I advise that you remove every single variable that you can think of. When reloading, never vary from your case prep (hopefully successful) formula. When shooting for load data, never vary from your shooting stance/position. Record results from every single target you print. Be careful and I wish you success.
    P
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    There are a lot of ways to get to the same positive end result. This is one that worked for him, and it works for me with Swiss Rifles. If you find better ways, use them, but be careful. Use manufacturers books and read the cautions and limits. I should add that we now use Redding Bushing dies for almost everything including 7.5 Swiss.

    This is our reloading tray. For precision shooting, all brass is weighed and separated by 1/10th gr increments.
    Note the "bell" curve of typical case manufacturing weight spread, and also not at all necessary for standard reloading.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Entries following this will be specifics on cases, projectiles, Lubes and neck tensions.

    ---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:08 PM ----------

    Grease and Maintenance. (Some comments by my Son)


    The grease is used for three purposes being cleaning, lubricating and protecting and the last can be divided in normal use and storage.

    To start with the cleaning first, before shooting the Swiss run a pad through the bore to clean out the grease there and from the bolt face, they do that with the help of a grease rod, that ones comes with a jag for a pad and a black grease brush.
    Immediately after shooting they run that black brush with Automatenfett through the still hot bore, put some grease on the bolt face and leave it like that. After they get home they clean it all from the grease, get a bore rope or cleaning brush through the bore and after that they lube it all again with fresh grease that stays on till the next shooting match.
    The grease dissolves the fouling and makes cleaning way more easy as using oil.

    Lubricating during normal use is only done on few spots, the most important ones are the flat (or round with the older straight pulls) inside receiver sliding part of the operating rod and the tip of the operating rod where it enters the bolt sleeve groove, that area needs to be lubed well.
    There should be no grease inside the bolt or at the outside but it won't hurt to use a tiny bit in the locking nut area.
    Do not use too much grease, the manual reads for the K31 "battle lubricating"......NONE , so the above is only to make your rifle operate more smoothly with less wear, after all the shooting range is no battle field.

    The protecting part is easy, Automatenfett can be used on bare metal to protect it against corrosion, use it limited especially on moving parts as we don't want sand to stick to these.

    For storage, the -"Parkdienstschmierung" as they say there- it's easy also;
    Barrel inside and outside, greased
    Chamber, greased
    Trigger assembly, inside bolt and hammer piece, NO grease (still the arsenals did not follow that rule that well as examples show)
    Bare metal parts, greased
    Blued parts, greased

    The storage part is the reason why so many new owners of K31's in the USAicon think that they are in cosmolineicon which is not the case, when they have been in storage in Swiss arsenals for a long time they are still well protected by the old yellow Waffenfett, the more recent ones are well protected by black Automatenfett.

    ================================================== =============================

    So your rifle came to you in the usual condition of the k31. Stock a bit beat up but with most of the metal finish intact and sharp, shiney lands and grooves, and you intend to keep it that way.
    Stop and think about this. The rifle came to you in the condition in which the Swiss soldier and Armoury kept it for many years. Is it not then a reasonable assumption that you'd follow the same maintenance ritual that has kept it in that condition for so many years? Maybe, but the average American shooter believes strongly in all of the advertising hype and testimonials to a myriad of maintenance products deemed absolutely necessary to keep a rifle as pristine as possible, few of which are factually relevant to the k31 barrel.

    This was written by my Dad quite a few years ago.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------



    The Armoury and the well instructed Swiss soldier used a product called Waffenfett, or weapon grease. A close and reasonable approximation in the US is Lubriplate 930. The barrel is swabbed with 930, running a patch back and forth followed by a dry patch. At the end of the shooting session while the barrel is still hot or warm, the lubriplate is worked back into the barrel and left that way until the next shooting session when a dry patch is run back through removing the excess lubriplate. That's it. If carbon in the throat and chamber become an issue from firing reloads, use a good carbon remover such as Montana Extreme, but leave the bore alone. It is a fact that excessive bore cleaning with brushes can and will shorten your barrel life.

    If, by shooting reloaded cartridges utilizing copper jacketed projectiles, your bore shows copper fouling, use a product such as WipeOut to remove it. This kind of a product fulfills it's task without continual scrubbing of the bore.

    This may sound like an overly simple approach, and the typical US shooter is usually a ready recipient of industry marketing efforts and barrel maintenance, but use this logic. My 50+ year old rifle came to me with a truly amazing bore. Why would I not then follow the maintenance practices of the Armoury and Soldier that delivered it to me in this condition?

    And also thank you Guisan

    P
    __________________

    ---------- Post added at 04:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

    To be continued.
    P

    ---------- Post added at 04:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:14 PM ----------

    This is the reloading room at the SP armoury. Lots of winter time spent in here.


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    Contributing Member Ovidio's Avatar
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    Here I am. Already enjoying...
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    Member 42rocker's Avatar
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    Lots of interesting material here. THANKS for the sharing. I have the dies and reloading that Swissicon 7.5 is planned. So again THANKS.

    Later 42rocker

  7. #4
    Really Senior Member RC20's Avatar
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    I have followed your postings on the Swissicon site, you have presented a lot of good and very good information and I respect that.

    I look forward to a discussion over all of the posting done above.

    I do have some disagreements (call it the Germanicon in me) . I do own a K31, a 1911 (a member of the forum was very kind in selling me both at a very good price and both are outstanding examples) as well as a Savage build 7.5 Swiss, so yes I think its an amazing and a much unappreciated cartridge (I call it a RUM before there was RUMs and it has all the hallmarks of the suddenly today found cartridges shape and efficient that is inc cartridge 0ver 100 years ago - stunning). The GP11 bullet is never been duplicated (another kind individual on the Savage site sent me 20 cartridges so I could play with them as I can't get any)

    First the tone of my way or the highway is something of a turn off, presenting information and that it works for you is fine. My findings are this tends to be open for discussion in various areas and often there are more than one way to do with it.

    RCBS Works: That is very good to know as there are about a gazillion takes on it. I usually buy RCBS and in this case a bonus as they are the only one that makes the competition seater in 7.5 Swiss (I did have to wait a bit).

    From a re-loaders perspective though, half a turn on the die is crushing the case severely. 1/8 is likely too much. I do have the tool to see when I have the shoulder moved back so I can do less. I have not tried to do 1/2 turns and see how long the case lasts. I don't see the 7.5 as being anything special in regards to re-load aspect (ahead of its time yes)

    I know not all are setup for it, but I am and I do .004 setback on the shoulder, the dies is not touch the shell holder and the cartridges work in both my Savage build and the K31. I do separate cases for both but the ones for the Savage will shoot in the K31 if I want to do a check.

    I wold be interested in what kind of case life you get. I can measure the results one of these days (I will be loading 7.5 ( 5his coming week).

    I have no problems with the K31 bolt closing (I don't shoot the 1911 much but will be working on an eye fix to see if I can see the sight better, old eyes are not flexible eyes sadly) - The Savage is not a problem either. Its a European Barrel from Lothar Walther so it should be the same Swiss chamber.

    Also why you think a half turn is needed at all. In the reloading world that is huge and not necessary. How long do your cases last before they crack at the base?

    Maintenance is a varying issue, I have 100 year old 1917 (and the 1911) and the bores are in fantastic shape as well. I don't know the Swiss process is the answer that ends all and is all. Keep in mind that in Louisiana that may well be needed (grease in the bore) but in dry areas no. None of my guns rust.

    I would think you would want to use a solvent to get the grease out of the bore before shooting it, at the very least it would seem to created carbon, not something I have experimented with.

    There are modern non haz and non toxic and vastly more efficient cleaners out there now. Carbon Killer 2000 is wonderful, I would have to dig up the write up , but proven with a boresesope to work and work outstanding. Bore Tehc Eliminator for copper and has a good carbon remove capability (nice combo as often layers of carbon and copper are on top of each other, unless you hit a real bad layer of carbon, the Bore Tech gets you a long way). I don't get copper though I do clean up guns that have copper in them.

    I differ from the original author as I tend to tinker with things to suit my setup and ops, in this case I have an eyedropper bottle I keep the CK2k in, nylon brush and drills it on the nylon brush, through the bore, drizzle the nylon brush where it sticks out, then 4 or 5 strokes and a patch. First few push fluid out and are ugly black. About 5 patch and its clean. I do clean the barrels when they are warm as that helps the CK2k. Same with Bore Tech but not used often.

    All authorities I know of do not agree that the primer should be flush with the top of the case.

    They are designed to be seated in the bottom of the pocket (there are little tiny anvils on them). - .003 to .005. Curious on this, Burden primes may be flush but those are a different beast of course.
    Last edited by RC20; 01-07-2019 at 03:25 PM.

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  9. #5
    Member Pierre's Avatar
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    I'm glad to see this! We will have some great discussions for sure! I must explain that my typing is limited as my wrists and fingers are pretty bad.
    Besides my firearms business, I was a chisel and mallet mural carver for 50 years and I was too aggressive. I had microsurgeries to save a bit of use from them, but typing for very long is difficult for me.
    All of what you read above is from my archives, written long ago. It's a basic, not meant for advanced reloaders. My Brass is RUAG Swissicon National Match brass. All of it. I'll post the explanation from the archives maybe tomorrow. I'm very solid on the points of disagreement, but that will take new typing, so it may take me a few days.

    The cartilage was all worn away so the surgeon shaved bone so I didn't lose all movement, but it's limited.

    Below is the last mural I carved. It took nearly a year and was the final nail in the coffin for my carving. It's 18' long and 5' tall by 6" thick. It hangs in Glacier Park International Airport here in Montana. I still have my Swiss firearms business. Swiss Products | swissproductsusa | Kalispell Montana

    The last carving I'll ever have done.













    Back when I can.
    P

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  11. #6
    Really Senior Member RC20's Avatar
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    Now that is some carving and take all the time you need.

    Once I looked into the 7.5 I got more and more impressed.

    Pulling and examining the GP11 bullet and nothing remotely like it I know of. You would think someone would duplicate it out of curiosity.

  12. #7
    Member Pierre's Avatar
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    Die Berger 175gr VLD ist fast gleich. SEHR nah und ..................... Wenn Du lieber Deutsch sprechen wurdest ... können wir das auch, aber besser Englisch für die Mitglieder, gell?

    Ich war in den späten 60er Jahren vier Jahre lang Schüler der Grafikschule der Kunstschule West-End in Offenbach am Main. Ich habe in Ne-Isenburg gewohnt

    Diogenes sass in Seinem Fass uns sprach.. "Ja ja, dass kommt von dass". LOL

    P

    ---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:06 PM ----------

    RC, did I make a mistake thinking you spoke Germanicon? If I did, I can translate what I said up above.

    P

  13. #8
    Member Pierre's Avatar
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    Sorry. Translation:

    The Berger 175gr VLD is almost the same. VERY close and ..................... If you would rather speak Germanicon ... w can do that, but better in English for the members?

    For four years in the late 1960s, I was a student of the graphics school of the Kunst Schule Westend in Offenbach am Main. I lived in Neu-Isenburg

    Diogenes sat in his barrel and spoke.... "Yes, yes, that comes from that". LOL

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    Contributing Member Ovidio's Avatar
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    Well Pierre, I guessed you had some Germanicon background. Simply for the “gell” at the end.
    That is uncommon at least if you didn’t grow up with the language.
    I studied my whole life in a German school and have been working over 25 years now in all the German speaking countries.
    34a cp., btg. Susa, 3° rgt. Alpini

  15. #10
    Member Pierre's Avatar
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    I was looking for a way to delete those photos. They're not necessary, but as usual, I'm out of the loop as to how that works.

    Da lachen ja die Hühner............Oh well............

    I'll be continuing soon.
    P
    Last edited by Pierre; 01-08-2019 at 11:45 AM.

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