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Thread: C3A1 Kahles ZF69 Scope

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  1. #1
    Really Senior Member rgg_7's Avatar
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    C3A1 Kahles ZF69 Scope

    Have read in C Law's book " Without Warning" that Unertl had problems delivering this scope to match the C3a1 rifle delivery. Did CF use the Kahles ZF69 early on in the program to bridge the gap? Ron(Canadaicon)


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    Ron,
    Yes they did, but a lot surrounding the scopes was very vague until this document of 1989 alludes at the bottom that "The existing KHALES telescope will be replaced with a UNERTL 10 inch telescope to be provided by DND"
    Hope that helps. It seems a lot of money was wasted on trying to find the Holy Grail of scopes at the time!
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    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Really Senior Member rgg_7's Avatar
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    I'm aware that the original DND specification called for a 10x Unertl scope in a one piece bracket to be provided by Parker Hale. Parker Hale could not establish a contract with John Unertl and DND Supply stepped in, negotiated a contact and supplied the scope10x Unertl scope. Parker Hale designed, manufactured and installed the "original" the one piece bracket. This is the combination that is most commonly seen and intended for the program.

    What did DND at the outset of the program? Had C3a1's - No Unertl 10x scopes. Had Kahles ZF's from the C3 program. I did a little more research this morning found a couple pictures of a ZF69scope mount in a special Parker Hale one piece bracket on a C3a1 in beech stock.

    Ron (Canadaicon)

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    Ron,
    As said, strange times, only those who were part of the decision making can give a definitive answer to that one.
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Quote Originally Posted by rgg_7 View Post
    I'm aware that the original DND specification called for a 10x Unertl scope in a one piece bracket to be provided by Parker Hale. Parker Hale could not establish a contract with John Unertl and DND Supply stepped in, negotiated a contact and supplied the scope10x Unertl scope. Parker Hale designed, manufactured and installed the "original" the one piece bracket. This is the combination that is most commonly seen and intended for the program.

    What did DND at the outset of the program? Had C3a1's - No Unertl 10x scopes. Had Kahles ZF's from the C3 program. I did a little more research this morning found a couple pictures of a ZF69scope mount in a special Parker Hale one piece bracket on a C3a1 in beech stock.

    Ron (Canadaicon)
    You have the order wrong- PH supplied the original PH one piece (aluminium?) brackets, John Unertl objected to them as being chintzy garbage.

    John Unertl designed the bracket which was used on the c3a1 and PH manufactured it for the rifle. The c3a1 bracket is clearly based on the m40a1 bracket which J Unertl manufactured for the USMC.

    Look for c3a1 brackets without the PH logo and if you compare them they are assembled differently.
    Last edited by Lee Enfield; 02-23-2019 at 11:48 AM.

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    Really Senior Member rgg_7's Avatar
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    Lee Enfield - I have an example of both one piece steel brackets that mount the 10x Unertl. The one with the Parker Hale logo and with out - I'll examine both and report my findings. What I'm asking is what DND did for scopes prior to receiving the 10x Unertl. I'm aware of the difference in opinion between Parker Hale and John Unertl -it's an interesting story.

    Gil - I'm going to send you a couple pictures from Feb 1991 that are from the DND Infantry School. If you could pls post these on this thread as I can't upload to this site for some reason.. The C3a1 pictured uses the front dovetail and a special block behind the rear step in the receiver. The one bracket machine specifically for this application attaches to these mounting points and the ZF rests in the mount. This is a Parker Hale manufactured mount.

    Thanks,

    Ron (Canadaicon)

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    Ron,
    Posted as requested
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Name:	C3a1KahlesScope-2.jpg‎
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    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Ron,

    Lee Enfield is correct Parker Hale did supply the original one piece brackets which were steel, and Unertl rejected them for his own reasons.
    He then went on to design his own bracket for the C3A1.
    PH then did in sufference produce them for your DOD. USO also supplied a number of scopes.
    Is that what you were after or did you think it occurred the other way round?

    Added after:
    Meant to say Ron, in your email with the pics you say the C3A1 bracket had the serial number of the rifle on. Yes they all did here is an example where a USO scope was fitted:
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    Last edited by Gil Boyd; 02-23-2019 at 01:05 PM.
    'Tonight my men and I have been through hell and back again, but the look on your faces when we let you out of the hall - we'd do it all again tomorrow.' Major Chris Keeble's words to Goose Green villagers on 29th May 1982 - 2 PARA

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    Really Senior Member rgg_7's Avatar
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    Gil - Thanks for posting the couple pictures.

    What start all this was a package I purchased from a CF Weapons Tech about 7 years ago. It was a special bracket that I had not seen before. The bracket had the Parker Hale logo and a serial number stamped into the side wall of the bracket; did some research and determined that the serial number was C3a1. Upon obtaining the Parker Hale C3a1 build records noted that the SN was in the records.

    After number emails and calls s I was told that the Kahles ZF69 was used early on in the C3a1 program as the specified 10X Unertl's were not available. "A ****ing contest between Parker Hale and Unertl" which the DND finally stepped into and went direct to John Unertl. Then there was the Gulf War, and all of John's commercial issues and his demise. I believe the contract was completed by John's wife . USO was not in the picture.

    About 3.5 years ago I was provided with some documents that detailed on going issues with Parker Hale and DND. Amongst these documents were the a number of pictures - 2 of which Gill posted on my behalf. The pictures show a scoped wood stocked C3a1 with the bracket and a ZF69. Picture is dated Feb 1991.

    I have the special bracket that i.m talking about - it has the C3a1's SN on the side wall...very early number. Also have the scope.

    Should any of our members have any info on this topic or other scope combination pls post or PM.

    Ron (Canadaicon)

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    Gil, US Optics did not produce mst100 parts until (earliest) 2001.

    They could not have produced a complete scope earlier than that - I would suspect September 11, 2001 is thw specific date that they were authorized by J.Unertl's widow to do so.

    This information is from a USO advertising document dated 2004.

    The illustrated USO scope is NOT Canadianicon contract, it is a commercial scope marked with spurious markings.

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