Vietnam clone...”The Shillelagh“

[old tanker]

Dave, apologies for words in mouth, but did you intend to say "couldn't hit someone in a closet"?

I also have what I refer to as the "Swcharzkopf" model, i.e., same gun but registered SBR with a M1A1 M1 carbine repro stock attached.

They are definitely close in sticks. I find I do ok with them, but they are on the wild side. Not a precision weapon at all. A 25 yard weapon, maybe 50 yards if I aim true and squeeze gently. :-)

Dave, would you say they (the chopped carbine versions) were prevalent among U.S. Forces, or just kind of an oddity? Was that a stop-gap weapon prior to the XM177E1's coming to the troops? Was it the impetus for the XM-177E1's ?? I don't think anybody was doing this to carbines during WWII?

Carbines were plentiful in Viet Nam and most of the ones I saw were M2 carbines. Most of the troopers who had them obtained them through unofficial sources. Since you were not "signed" for it, chopping them was usually undertaken by whoever first acquired it. Some of the barrels I saw were crudely hack saw cut, far from square and uncrowned. Dispersion for "area fire" was built in.



I suspect their apparent popularity with helicopter pilots stemmed from a lack of confidence in the volume of fire they could obtain from the .38 special revolver and the pipsqueak M41 cartridge they were issued.

[browningautorifle]

it will run 2 -15 round magazines, then starts doing the SAME THING!

Wish I was close, I'd love to have it in hand for a day. I'd figure it out...just takes a minute. I don't have anything else to do after all.

[lemaymiami]

Spent a bit of time in choppers back in 1971 and considering that the metal between you and any incoming was not much heavier than a beer can.... my sidearm was the least of my worries... I was never a combat trooper, just a REMF hitching a ride in one direction or other, but never saw even a hint of a chopped carbine that year. You did see large number of regular carbines with ARVNs but that was about it...

[DaveHH]

Carbines were plentiful in Viet Nam and most of the ones I saw were M2 carbines. Most of the troopers who had them obtained them through unofficial sources. Since you were not "signed" for it, chopping them was usually undertaken by whoever first acquired it. Some of the barrels I saw were crudely hack saw cut, far from square and uncrowned. Dispersion for "area fire" was built in.

I suspect their apparent popularity with helicopter pilots stemmed from a lack of confidence in the volume of fire they could obtain from the .38 special revolver and the pipsqueak M41 cartridge they were issued.

One of the things that you had to get used to was the sound of choppers. Practically 24 hrs a day you could hear that "whop-whop". There were a lot of them and a lot of pilots. I'd say that at least half were not being used in inserting and extracting maneuver infantry. We had about four in my signal battalion. They were like a taxicab around II Corps. Our pilots were all officers Majors down, No WOs. These guys just had weapons in the birds. Some of these, some of that. Nobody wanted to come down outside Pleiku without at least a 45. One night the VC got inside the wire and blew up a couple of the $150K toys.
Carbines were everywhere. Most were in PF, Nungs, ARVNs and Koreans had a lot of them. I personally always felt that the beauty of a rifle or carbine was to be able to pick off bad guys at 100 yds and out. We did a lot of convoy type stuff and it was flat country on HWY1. That M14 was the cat's meow out of a truck.

[mrclark303]

One of the things that you had to get used to was the sound of choppers. Practically 24 hrs a day you could hear that "whop-whop". There were a lot of them and a lot of pilots. I'd say that at least half were not being used in inserting and extracting maneuver infantry. We had about four in my signal battalion. They were like a taxicab around II Corps. Our pilots were all officers Majors down, No WOs. These guys just had weapons in the birds. Some of these, some of that. Nobody wanted to come down outside Pleiku without at least a 45. One night the VC got inside the wire and blew up a couple of the $150K toys.
Carbines were everywhere. Most were in PF, Nungs, ARVNs and Koreans had a lot of them. I personally always felt that the beauty of a rifle or carbine was to be able to pick off bad guys at 100 yds and out. We did a lot of convoy type stuff and it was flat country on HWY1. That M14 was the cat's meow out of a truck.

Having travelled through Vietnam in the early 1990's, I was somewhat surprised to see the odd H model Huey flying around still, I suppose they inherited enough to keep some of the birds flying for decades....

I believe they were still flying some of the inherited fleet of A model Chinooks until comparatively recently too.

I can quite see why guys would procure M2's, extremely handy little carbines.

I would have thought an M2 in a para stock, would be about the perfect blend of compact firepower for the helicopter crew of the day.

You could certainly stash quite a few of those compact 30rd mags about your person....

[USGI]

One of the things that you had to get used to was the sound of choppers.

Dave, I wasn't in Vietnam but both my older brothers were. The next older was in the 1st Air Cav's and was badly injured in the Tet Offensive of '68. While in Canby, OR several years ago, I saw they had placed this War Memorial and decided to take a few pictures. Help me remember the model of this chopper. Thanks! - Bob

[browningautorifle]

the model of this chopper.

Bell UH-1 Iroquois? Single engine? Can't really see it. Ours were the twin engine. Bell UH-1 Iroquois - Wikipedia

[old tanker]

Dave, I wasn't in Vietnam but both my older brothers were. The next older was in the 1st Air Cav's and was badly injured in the Tet Offensive of '68. While in Canby, OR several years ago, I saw they had placed this War Memorial and decided to take a few pictures. Help me remember the model of this chopper. Thanks! - Bob

Quick and dirty version: UH-1D or UH-1H "long" body Huey, H had a more powerful engine, but otherwise they looked mostly identical. Remove the little extra door in front of the sliding door and it's the shorter B model. Hang rocket pods and guns on it, it was the C model. Maje it twin engiine and it's the F model.

[lemaymiami]

We simply called them "slicks" (that well known Huey in the statue set up as a medevac bird)... The ride I liked the best was in a small bird called a LOACH. It looked like a clear egg with a stick on the back (the tail boom) and only carried a pilot and an observer. That thing was so maneuverable that the pilot could fly it up under trees - or simply tend a perimeter all day long. Where I was they had hunter/killer teams composed of a LOACH poking along at ground level, while way up above just about out of sight lurked a Cobra gunship chopper. When the "white" unit took fire it E & E'd out of there while the "red" unit came down and took care of business..... I remember them being called pink teams for the white/red combination.

To this day I still don't equate any chopper ride as being for fun... even though I was just a ride along. Where I was, well north of DaNang choppers were like the cross-town bus. You didn't go anywhere if you weren't flying.

[DaveHH]

Dave, I wasn't in Vietnam but both my older brothers were. The next older was in the 1st Air Cav's and was badly injured in the Tet Offensive of '68. While in Canby, OR several years ago, I saw they had placed this War Memorial and decided to take a few pictures. Help me remember the model of this chopper. Thanks! - Bob

Ours were just the same as the slicks but there were M60s on either side of the side doors. I can't tell you the model numbers because I wasn't involved in that part. There were hundreds of these things around and a lot of Chinooks. Surprisingly few of the little bubble ships. We once set up a race between a Huey and a Chinook by badgering the pilots. The Chinook just blew the Huey away, no race. When it came to best aircraft, nothing came close to the C130s and the best pilots as well. I liked the CV2s also. There were a few being operated by the Army until about half way in my stay, then they were taken over by the AF. Things were much more easy when the Army had control. But they were also a lot more seat of the pants under the Army. On one flight I was delivering a bunch of material to our Detachment at An Khe. It was stuff like lumber, radio stuff and jungle junk. The CV2 opened up the back ramp and I went into a Golf Course bunker to get an officer down there to sign for the stuff. All of a sudden I heard the CV2 gun the engines and start to leave. I made it just in time to close the door and take off. They had tossed everything out and were leaving. I asked the pilot, a Captain, why the rush and he told me he had a hot date that night. I saw our LT arrive in his French armored car to watch us fly off heading toward the east.