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Thread: Carl Zeiss Jena Prismatic MG sight - Turkish markings?

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Carl Zeiss Jena Prismatic MG sight - Turkish markings?

    Anyone seen one of these before? I have not. From the hand-engraved script markings I know is very early, well before WWI



    Not certain it's for MGs, but certainly looks like it. 5x magnification. The FoV marking is illegible so far.
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    Last edited by Surpmil; 06-16-2019 at 12:23 AM.
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    Really Senior Member Woodsy's Avatar
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    It does not have the normal inverted V reticle nor any range adjustment dial that is normal for the ZF12 MG prismatic sights. I think it may be an angle of sight instrument for an artillery piece where the whole sight mounting moves against a scale.

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    Contributing Member MG1918's Avatar
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    Smile Carl Zeiss Sight

    I am not an expert but some thoughts. It is NOT a service issue Imperial Germanicon MG sight as the standard ZF12 was the main and first sight for the MG (albeit in different patterns and variants) for the MG08. The MG01 did not have a sight so not pre-WWI. My offering is along the lines of perhaps it was/is a MG sight ... but something 'manufactured' ie put together by the Turks. The slide rail would need closer examination but this item would not be the first thing to have been cobbled together to meet a need. The real piece of evidence I would offer is that I have some pre-WWI Carl Zeiss rifle scopes, that with sniper shortages in 1914, were fitted to service rifles. Therefore becoming early military grade sniper telescopes. This is the subject for snipers, but these scopes are worryingly similar to yours, and there were several variants. x 5 magnification? what a great item for MGs!! I will add some imagery and people can draw their own conclusions but as I have said an offered view that may be the solution.....perhaps.
    It would not be impossible to dismantle and reassemble and add some form of rail and indeed the Turks were/are excellent wizards at this sort of thing.
    Last edited by MG1918; 12-03-2019 at 10:11 AM.

    Seeking items for the German MG08, MG08/15. LMG08/15 & T Gewehr.

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    Contributing Member MG1918's Avatar
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    CZ pre-War (WWI) hunting scopes.

    Images of various scopes - all looking similar!
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    Seeking items for the German MG08, MG08/15. LMG08/15 & T Gewehr.

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    Contributing Member MG1918's Avatar
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    More scope imagery

    Considering size shape and function, I am beginning to think this is the answer


    Seeking items for the German MG08, MG08/15. LMG08/15 & T Gewehr.

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    Thread Starter
    Thanks for the feedback. I'd be glad if that was the answer(!), but I have examined a few of those scopes of different models and although I believe the prism is the same as that used in the GZII and by the way, the Zeiss Telaplast and Stenotar binoculars, there's nothing cobbled together about this unit, and when this was made before circa 1905, the Turks certainly weren't making any optics, or much else! The rifle scopes such as you illustrated have light alloy bodies whereas this piece is heavy bronze.

    There is a unit in the Zeiss Museum with some similar features.

    Now the Warner & Swasey was heavy bronze as well, but Zeiss was far ahead of W&S in design, if not optical and mechanical production.

    The Mod. 1913 Sight is such a monstrosity that either W&S was completely out of touch with leading designs, too egotistical to pay any attention to them, or they were just making as expensive and complex a unit as they could to fleece the US Ordnance Dept.

    Instead of the complex "Sprenger-Leman" prism Zeiss used. the W&S 1913 features a couple of rather small (and therefore cheap) simple porro prisms.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by Surpmil; 12-06-2019 at 10:49 PM.
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    Carl Zeiss Jena Prismatic MG sight - Turkish markings?

    Hi

    Have just come across this post after hours of searching.

    I have one of these. I was given it when I was a kid and never had any idea what it was. Mine has markings on it which I always assumed to be Middle Eastern, and came with it's heavy leather, belt mounted case.

    I always figured it must have been some form of gun sight. I'd owned it for many years before I discovered that if you shine a light in the small glass apperture, it illuminates the cross-hairs.

    At least I know which direction to look in now to try and pin down exactly what it is.

    Cheers

    Russ

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    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    Hi

    Have just come across this post after hours of searching.

    I have one of these. I was given it when I was a kid and never had any idea what it was. Mine has markings on it which I always assumed to be Middle Eastern, and came with it's heavy leather, belt mounted case.

    I always figured it must have been some form of gun sight. I'd owned it for many years before I discovered that if you shine a light in the small glass apperture, it illuminates the cross-hairs.

    At least I know which direction to look in now to try and pin down exactly what it is.

    Cheers

    Russ
    Thanks for posting! Can you put up some photos of yours?

    Are the markings the same as in the third photo in my initial post?
    "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." W.L.S.C..

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    Quote Originally Posted by MG1918 View Post
    Considering size shape and function, I am beginning to think this is the answer

    Attachment 104089Attachment 104090
    Incidentally, the Greener rifle seems to be a George Gibbs Ltd. fitting from the B6099 number added, which is typical of Gibbs. They seem to have stocked up quite a few Ross .280s, or at least retailed them.

    The scope is a G.Z.III, not II model.

    The mounts are typical "Wiener Schnapp Montage" which rather suggests the scope was fitted on the Continent rather than in Englandicon.

    The scope is set so far back that shooting from the prone position would be difficult. Using the tube as a carrying handle "while stalking"?

    The low power of 2x is more than compensated for by the 12.5° FoV and excellent light gathering. The exit pupil is massive for the time: 9mm approx., with 15/16mm objective and 30mm eyepiece.

    The pupil of fully dark-adapted human eye can dilate to about 7mm diameter, so an exit pupil in excess of 7mm is passing more light than the eye can accept.
    These scopes were probably intended first for hunters working from high seats in the somewhat dark central European forests. For use in the trenches they would have been nearly ideal, with the extra 1 & 5/8" of rise of the objective above the ocular being icing on the cake. Many a life was lost that an extra inch would have spared.

    The reticule would be this type:
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	Zeiss GZ Reticule 2.jpg‎
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    Last edited by Surpmil; 12-13-2019 at 02:51 AM.
    "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." W.L.S.C..

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    Member Jabberwocky's Avatar
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    Carl Zeiss Jena Prismatic MG sight - Turkish markings?

    Surprised myself by being able to find the thing within 5 minutes - stashed in a box in the loft!

    Here are some photo's - sorry about the quality, I just used my phone...

    [ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH][ATTACH] [/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH][/ATTACH]

    Hope the upload wrks.

    Russ
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