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  1. #11
    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    Have you ever heard of deck cargo? Have you ever seen deck cargo from across the Pacific? Grease and whatever else doesn't do much especially when they are left crated. Annanuvverfing. I was actually there......... Another small point is that while I was there I never saw a Mk1/2 or 1/3or 2. I asked our ordnance to supply the drawings for the conversion and still have them, copied and sent to me at Waiouru. The trouble is that I've had such a sheltered life. I need to get about a bit..............



    Just read BAR's reply and my response and it sounded as if I came across as a bit dismissive. Not the case, just a bit thoughtless in my reply. Sorry BAR and Clarkie.......
    Nothing to apologise for Peter, always interesting stuff...

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  3. #12
    Senior Member 22SqnRAE's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Gentlemen,

    Thank you all. I'll avoid going sequentially through the list, but I am very appreciative for each and every personal contribution.

    Peter, you certainly got around in the 60's! Australiaicon and NZ. I guess that should provide some with a reference why your views and prolific articles are the prime references for matters Lee Enfield.

    It's interesting to note the several "new" and "unfired (love that term)" rifles floating around in OZ of recent times, they are all marked with the NZ inventory numbers (Apparently Kiwis can't count high enough to use the Factory applied hundred thousand number formats! )

    So the "unfired" and more importantly "unissued" statement is a myth, based on Peter's actual observations. This might upset a few motivated vendors seeking 'top dollar' on their rifles.

    Now, an open question, does anyone have any thoughts on the rear sight model that NZ Army used? Was there a pattern of replacements from the Mk 2 (3/600 flip) to the Mk 3 or Mk 4? Or, even the Mk 1 at later stages? Or was it very much up to Unit armourers in the LAD that got around to improving rifles as they flowed through the workshop?

    I'm not caught up in the collector rigidity, just interested to learn what you possibly already know.

    Again, grateful for your contribution and hope that a few others are getting same value out of the sharing of knowledge.
    Collection: No 1 Mk 1*, No 1 Mk III*, No 2 Mk IV, No 3 Mk 1*, No 4 Mk 1, No 4 Mk 1*, No 4 Mk 1/2, No 4 Mk 2, No 5 Mk 1, US Cal .30 M1903, US Cal .30 M1903A1, US Cal .30 M1903A3, US Cal .30 M1917, Kar 98k.

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    Really Senior Member 5thBatt's Avatar
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    I have heard some No4s were unpacked from the crates, inspected & stamped with N^Z & a inventory number & repacked & from what i have seen & heard (some people buying whole crates when surplussed out) this did indeed happen.

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    I can tell you where I was and what I actually saw. The factory crated rifles we had - and there were a large amount of crates) were stacked upright in the crates 10 or so per side, butt to bottom, next one butt to top and so on so the crates were fairly slim to save space. They were recorded on the VERY attractive and tall Sue Munns, the Inventory clerks inventory scales by serial number which was (as I remember it) stenciled on the crate end in black. TOTALLY illegible on these scrap rifles. If anyone wants to look for where the rusted out remains were dumped, then look across the road from where the old vehicle and armourers workshop was (the road ran through the huge Ordnance complex and past the old ammunition silos on towards Hamilton... until it was bypassed in the early 60's) to where the old wooden test range hut was situated. That was used as the general tip site! If the old range hut is still standing, the concrete block in the middle was where the Enfield Rest was mounted and the holes in the old wooden door were made by me with a Thompson gun

    The only person I actually KNOW that purchased a brand new, unused No4 rifle direct from Ordnance was my old friend, RNZEME Major KimW who was on this site until he passed away a few years ago. That's really all I know about NZicon No4 rifles

    Just looked at the group photo and names. The other bloke with me and Denny Phillips who went to de-crate the No4's for disposal was Frank Seeley and I think that Frank was an ex RNZAF Armourer who worked on Mosquitos and Sunderlands

    Added as a post scrip: We also had about 8 or so L2A1 rifles in the workshop from Papakura that had been there for a few months awaiting spares from Oz. I cannibalised one or two to complete two of the others but the specialised L2 spares in NZ were like rocking horse manure. As we had loads of unused L2's in Malaya that we never used as we had L4 and 303 Brens I just wrote to and asked the 4-RAR armourers if they'd send the necessary L2 bits over......, bipod bits, barrels and back sight parts. Lo and behold a few weeks later they arrived. Same story with Bren locking shoulder screws for some strange reason............ I mean, how many million did they need.

    Did a few tours there, good times

  7. Thank You to Peter Laidler For This Useful Post:


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    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
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    Looks like "Sylvia Park" is a shopping centre nowadays.


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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    I can tell you where I was and what I actually saw. The factory crated rifles we had - and there were a large amount of crates) were stacked upright in the crates 10 or so per side, butt to bottom, next one butt to top and so on so the crates were fairly slim to save space. They were recorded on the VERY attractive and tall Sue Munns, the Inventory clerks inventory scales by serial number which was (as I remember it) stenciled on the crate end in black. TOTALLY illegible on these scrap rifles. If anyone wants to look for where the rusted out remains were dumped, then look across the road from where the old vehicle and armourers workshop was (the road ran through the huge Ordnance complex and past the old ammunition silos on towards Hamilton... until it was bypassed in the early 60's) to where the old wooden test range hut was situated. That was used as the general tip site! If the old range hut is still standing, the concrete block in the middle was where the Enfield Rest was mounted and the holes in the old wooden door were made by me with a Thompson gun

    The only person I actually KNOW that purchased a brand new, unused No4 rifle direct from Ordnance was my old friend, RNZEME Major KimW who was on this site until he passed away a few years ago. That's really all I know about NZicon No4 rifles

    Just looked at the group photo and names. The other bloke with me and Denny Phillips who went to de-crate the No4's for disposal was Frank Seeley and I think that Frank was an ex RNZAF Armourer who worked on Mosquitos and Sunderlands

    Added as a post scrip: We also had about 8 or so L2A1 rifles in the workshop from Papakura that had been there for a few months awaiting spares from Oz. I cannibalised one or two to complete two of the others but the specialised L2 spares in NZ were like rocking horse manure. As we had loads of unused L2's in Malaya that we never used as we had L4 and 303 Brens I just wrote to and asked the 4-RAR armourers if they'd send the necessary L2 bits over......, bipod bits, barrels and back sight parts. Lo and behold a few weeks later they arrived. Same story with Bren locking shoulder screws for some strange reason............ I mean, how many million did they need.

    Did a few tours there, good times
    I often wonder were my ex NZ L2A1 came from Peter.

    Considering NZ only had 300 or so to start with.

    It's the only full Aus/NZ spec example I have ever seen, or heard of in the UKicon, (mine was NZ contract).

    The only other example I have seen and examined, is in Warminster.
    Love to know that one's story.

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    The NZicon L2 at Warminster and a Steyer-Aug were exchanged for an L42 and CES and a couple of SA80's. As a matter of interest, the L42 we gave them was the second to last L42 to be withdrawn from UKicon service. It was 'stolen' from display at Waiouru and a fake left in its place. We kept the last one. Next question.....

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff Peter, looks like the only two ex NZicon L2's in the UKicon (possibly in the northern hemisphere) have by coincidence, ended up 30 miles apart!
    Funny old world....

    I would assume these government to government museum 'swaps' go via diplomatic baggage?

    I wonder how long it will be before even this perfectly innocent and honourable study related exhibit swapping is kiboshed by international arms control regulations....

    Here's my ex NZ L2A1 (its ex Malay contract brother behind), with it rare as hens teeth, top cover mounted backsight and TMH backsight blanking plate.

    S/N AD65270 ( for the train spotters among us) I know I'm one!

    Sorry to go off thread, on one of our regular tangents!
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by mrclark303; 08-16-2019 at 04:01 PM.

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    I wouldn't care to elaborate on how government to government or Army or Army transactions take place........ The L2's were really just heavy rifles as far as we were concerned especially those Oz and NZicon Infantry I was with at the time - after being brought up on Brens and L4's.

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    Really Senior Member 5thBatt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Laidlericon View Post
    I can tell you where I was and what I actually saw. The factory crated rifles we had - and there were a large amount of crates) were stacked upright in the crates 10 or so per side, butt to bottom, next one butt to top and so on so the crates were fairly slim to save space. They were recorded on the VERY attractive and tall Sue Munns, the Inventory clerks inventory scales by serial number which was (as I remember it) stenciled on the crate end in black. TOTALLY illegible on these scrap rifles. If anyone wants to look for where the rusted out remains were dumped, then look across the road from where the old vehicle and armourers workshop was (the road ran through the huge Ordnance complex and past the old ammunition silos on towards Hamilton... until it was bypassed in the early 60's) to where the old wooden test range hut was situated. That was used as the general tip site! If the old range hut is still standing, the concrete block in the middle was where the Enfield Rest was mounted and the holes in the old wooden door were made by me with a Thompson gun

    The only person I actually KNOW that purchased a brand new, unused No4 rifle direct from Ordnance was my old friend, RNZEME Major KimW who was on this site until he passed away a few years ago. That's really all I know about NZicon No4 rifles

    Just looked at the group photo and names. The other bloke with me and Denny Phillips who went to de-crate the No4's for disposal was Frank Seeley and I think that Frank was an ex RNZAF Armourer who worked on Mosquitos and Sunderlands

    Added as a post scrip: We also had about 8 or so L2A1 rifles in the workshop from Papakura that had been there for a few months awaiting spares from Oz. I cannibalised one or two to complete two of the others but the specialised L2 spares in NZ were like rocking horse manure. As we had loads of unused L2's in Malaya that we never used as we had L4 and 303 Brens I just wrote to and asked the 4-RAR armourers if they'd send the necessary L2 bits over......, bipod bits, barrels and back sight parts. Lo and behold a few weeks later they arrived. Same story with Bren locking shoulder screws for some strange reason............ I mean, how many million did they need.

    Did a few tours there, good times
    Not doubting you Peter, just passing on info i have picked up, the NZ markings on No4s vary so obviously different areas had different markings requirements, so what happened where you were is what happened where you were.

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