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Thread: Anybody been watching these Carbine items?

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  1. #11
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    The narrow mag wall on that "Outstanding IP Trigger Housing Group" was still bothering me, so I've gone through all of my Carbine Books the past couple days and finally decided it must be a Type 2 and I missed seeing the beveled lug. Went back and took another look at the pictures - I don't see any bevel, so why the narrow mag wall if it's in fact a Type 3? I must be missing something. Need to go over and check the CC website - hope to find an answer there. - Bob
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  3. #12
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    GIUSBOB,
    How bout this idea......
    Lets call it a IP-S'G' made Trigger Housing.

    Reply from link below...........
    This first one sound familiar ?

    ".....there was possibly a "transition" trigger housing without the bevel on the rear lug, but still had the narrow mag wall."

    Could have been started by IP, depending when they were finished by S'G' would have determined rear mag wall width, bevels or no bevels, full hole or tooling dimple.

    Same early style S'G' TH brought up here-Details and page # links to War Baby here:
    https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=47637
    Charlie-Painter777

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    Charlie: Hmmm! Nope, didn't sound familiar at all until I opened your link! That thread was only 5 years after I retired, now it's been 10! Sure wish the pictures for that auction were still viewable. The TH must have been nearly the same as the one we're discussing now. Seems like Bruce was right, ChipS was right - I'm still confused.

    I should have checked back on this thread after supper instead of waiting until almost bedtime. I have the books back out again too, and now they're even more confusing. If you look closely in Riesch's book or even Larson's, they do a pretty good job of explaining the differences in these TH's. WarBaby is the tough one - WBI doesn't mean much unless you check every page for the updates using the "Errata Sheet" and then again for updates (if you can find them) listed in WB III. Jim M's site helps, but even studying TH's there today raised some new questions.

    I've come to the point like many others, that we just have to accept that about anything can, and does show up when trying to determine what is "correct" with parts on an M1icon Carbine. Below is the link to Jim's page on the Trigger Housings. - Bob

    http://www.uscarbinecal30.com/triggergroup1.html

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    Trigger Housing Picture from the auction



    Common to see Ordnance Flaming Bomb on early S'G' trigger housings.

    I believe-
    IP had the complete circle tooling hole. And started out making the Type II housings that still had the Narrow rear magwall, like the Type I housings others had previously made.
    Saginaw took over the Grand Rapids operations and finished up any housings IP had started.
    If these were far enough along with the rear bevel cut, S'G' finished it as a Type II, BUT had the still narrow rear mag wall and NO front bevel.
    If the left over IP housings didn't have the rear bevel work done, S'G' made them in the Type III style, BUT again could be found with the narrow rear mag wall. After using up any IP leftovers S'G' made just the NORMAL Type III housings...... with NO bevels and Wide Mag wall.
    This is why you see so few S'G' Type II Housings
    S'G' transitioned to the Dimpled tooling hole..... the later style hole (but not the last style which was no hole or just a Dimple and No hole).

    This one pictured has to of been started by IP.... Noting the narrow mag wall.
    Then finished by S'G'. These seem to show up very late 1,7 mil - early 1,8 mil range just after the take over by S'G', often found in the split IP/S'G' serial number block.

    In Short: I believe S'G' marked Type II housings you find with a Narrow Mag wall were started by IP and completed by S'G'.

    Here's a link to a similar example:
    My Saginaw S - The Carbine Collector's Club
    Charlie-Painter777

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  7. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by painter777 View Post
    I believe-

    IP had the complete circle tooling hole. And started out making the Type II housings that still had the Narrow rear magwall, like the Type I housings others had previously made.

    S'G' transitioned to the Dimpled tooling hole..... the later style hole (but not the last style which was no hole or just a Dimple and No hole).
    Charlie, I wish I'd been more careful with my first post in this thread so it wouldn't have been moved - should have just posted the picture of the TH and not the link. I think you did an excellent job "summing up" the Grand Rapids trigger housings in your last post, and that's not an easy thing to do - that's why I had decided earlier to give up on it. After letting it rest for about a week, I took another look this evening, and have a couple of questions on your comments quoted above:

    1. If I'm reading the WB books correctly, the changes and additions listed in WB III suggest that IP did make what we commonly call Type 1 TH's. On page 1102, the Type A Variation 1 housing is defined as being "Incorporated Dec.19, 1941 with milled angles on rear lug and between front lugs." On that page, it also asks that we change the Type A Variation 2 definition to "2a", and add: with milled angles on rear lug and between front lugs, "2b" with angles on rear lugs only, "2c" without milled angles on rear lug or between front lugs. These changes are to be made to page 304 of WB 1. The WB 1 "errata sheet" also mentions these changes and some of the ones I'll list in the following paragraphs.

    Then in the Irwin Pedersen section on Page 1178 of WB III, it gives additions to be made to WB 1 page 420, 1st Housing, Trigger, Type A Variation 2 (milled; near magazine well wall, milled both sides). Add: Variation 1 (with locator hole at rear) a IP. Then also on page 420, 2nd Housing, Trigger, Type A, Variation 2, Add: Variation 1, b S'G'.

    I'm starting to see what WB III is trying to get across here and up to this point I thought it was having us add a Variation 1 TH (Type 1) for Irwin Petersen carbines. I said earlier, I didn't want to give up yet, but now see it only wants us to add a Variation 1a and a Variation 1b to the Variation 2 TH housings in order to show that they can be marked IP or SG. You guys probably already knew that! I was trying to read too much into it, I guess.

    I'll mention quickly too, without trying to copy in the text, that they did the same sort of thing with the Grand Rapids section of WB III on page 1180. There it outlines changes to be made on page 426 of WB I with a Variation 2, Variation 1 for the early production with the locating hole, and then a Variation 2, Variation 2 for the later production where the hole transitioned gradually into a dimple and then disappeared. Some of this applies to Page 427 in WB 1 and to the TH's pictured on those pages. There's a "b" printed there in the text and I'm assuming (I know what that means!) that it should go with the "2" as in 2b, but not sure. I took the liberty of assuming that's what was meant for the changes to be made for the Irwin Pedersen section in the paragraph above as well.

    2. Charlie, if you're still reading (kinda hope no one else is) what did you mean by (not the last style which was no hole or just a dimple and no hole? I thought your S'G' Type 3 housing was that type - with just the dimple?? Mine in that composite picture you linked to, has the dimple and a hole. - Bob

    Last edited by USGI; 09-21-2019 at 04:34 AM. Reason: mistake in the last paragraph - probably not the only one!

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