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  1. #11
    Advisory Panel Brian Dick's Avatar
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    The news media, (read FAKE NEWS), here in the USAicon wants to portray these fires as caused by climate change when it's blatant arson. I agree with Jim, that it's environmental terrorism. I hope these comments aren't too poiitical but the media has gone beyond the pale. They really do think that we're all stupid.

    It's terrible and my thoughts and prayers are with all of our Australianicon brothers and sisters.

    Brian

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    Contributing Member RASelkirk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    But WHO ARE these people? Is this going to be dealt with as terrorism? There were people making statements that this was how they were going to fight...
    Sorry, my source was Drudge/Breitbart. Haven't seen anything new on this, hoping these sources are not propagating fake news, as they're my primary source for "news"...

    Russ

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  7. #13
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Not trying to be a stick but allot has as I have stated to do with the local shires being able to conduct controlled burns to reduce the fuel loads on the ground that way if a fire does start through lightning strikes or other means the firies will have half a chance. Once you get a crown top fire its a hard push to stop it we have seen examples all over the world its fast moving, high heat and embers going everywhere by the wind storm created by it.
    I cannot comment on why the fuel loads have been left the way they are but will say blaming it on climate change is not the reason the reason is ill informed people thinking they are right in hugging a tree and saying you cannot burn here cool burns in the right conditions like the indigenous folk have done for eons it offers control-ability and animals time to scarper as usually the flame front is low and slow moving.
    I heard somewhere that these same tree huggers may have tried to impede the firies in their tasks but have seen no news on the matter but I hope to hell they did not try that stunt as they could find themselves complicent to murder as thats what they have done.
    Thing is after all this is done and the fires are out the buildings are the easy part its the impact on the victims they will need on going care mentally for you do not forget the horror of seeing the beast in that form and intensity and not have nightmares, some remain philosophical but I should say deep down they at times will feel the pinch I just hope the Govt pitches in with ongoing care of them.
    Here is the some of the latest its looking grim again as high heat for them this weekend;
    15h ago
    21:04
    We are wrapping up the live blog now, but we will be back at 7am AEDT for the latest on the fires.

    As of 9pm, this is what we know.

    In New South Wales, there are three emergency warning fires: Dunns Road, East Ournie Creek, Green Valley. All three blazes have merged and are located in the Snowy Valley region near the Victoria border.

    A 90km/h southerly is worsening conditions in NSW, and one male firefighter in his mid-20s suffered burns to his face fighting fires in the Snowy Valley region.

    The Green Valley fire is now 233,000 hectares in size, and is moving to Mundaroo, Tumbarumba and Mannus.

    Another three fires are at watch-and-act level.

    The southerly will continue up New South Wales and reach Sydney at around 2am. The RFS has warned a new fire in Faulconbridge in the Blue Mountains could take a turn around midnight when the change sweeps through.

    In Victoria there are eight fires at emergency warning level:

    Noorinbee and surrounding areas
    Walwa fire and surrounding areas
    Abbeyard fire 8km east-south-east of Abbeyard, travelling north-west towards the King Valley Area
    Mount Buffalo fire travelling in a north-easterly direction towards Bright
    Harrietville fire, currently travelling towards Myrtleford
    Two additional warnings for the Abbeyard fire for Davenport Village, Dinner Plain, Happy Valley and a number of towns close by
    Wodonga for a grass fire that is out of control
    An additional four fires are at watch and act level. A southerly has been passing through Victoria on its way to New South Wales. Severe thunderstorm predictions did not come to pass, but the CFA has warned conditions could worsen tonight.

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  9. #14
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    To what extent is this an inevitable burn off of a long accumulated "fuel load"?

    The world is getting warmer; it started about 1830.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 01-12-2020 at 12:32 AM.
    "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." W.L.S.C..

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    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
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    Isn't it practical for fire fighting flying boats to operate in Australiaicon at the moment? Are there no lakes that currently have sufficient water in for this type of aircraft to operate in Australia at the moment?


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  12. #16
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying10uk View Post
    Isn't it practical for fire fighting flying boats to operate in Australiaicon at the moment? Are there no lakes that currently have sufficient water in for this type of aircraft to operate in Australia at the moment?
    .

    They were built to operate on salt water.

    From Sproat Lake to Sydney would be probably two legs with stops in Hawaii and maybe Fiji. A couple of days in the air?

    Logistics would take some figuring, but if they could do it in 1944 why not now?
    Last edited by Surpmil; 01-18-2020 at 02:34 PM.
    "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." W.L.S.C..

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    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
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    Things have eased but the fires are still going and some rain has fallen they buried the young 28 y/o fire fighter who was crushed by their truck when the fire storm wind flipped their truck over on to him and injured the crew, another vehicle was flipped over by the same fire storm.
    Fire storms are where the fire pulls in the air around it the bigger it gets the more intense the wind in WWII the firestorms in Hamburg and Dresden particularly the former were so intense that it uprooted trees people hanging onto poles were stripped of their clothes until finally taken by the fire the heat was so intense it melted steel losses in Hamburg alone are not really known but well in excess of 40,000+ souls also allot died in cellars no oxygen as the fire consumed it, atomic bomb losses by conventional weapons.

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  16. #18
    Contributing Member Flying10uk's Avatar
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    The good thing about amphibian flying boats is that they can land on water and tarmac/concrete. This firefighting amphibian unfortunately, for whatever reason, didn't lower it's gear before attempting a landing. The results are not pretty but fortunately no-one was hurt.


  17. #19
    Advisory Panel Surpmil's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CINDERS View Post
    Things have eased but the fires are still going and some rain has fallen they buried the young 28 y/o fire fighter who was crushed by their truck when the fire storm wind flipped their truck over on to him and injured the crew, another vehicle was flipped over by the same fire storm.
    Fire storms are where the fire pulls in the air around it the bigger it gets the more intense the wind in WWII the firestorms in Hamburg and Dresden particularly the former were so intense that it uprooted trees people hanging onto poles were stripped of their clothes until finally taken by the fire the heat was so intense it melted steel losses in Hamburg alone are not really known but well in excess of 40,000+ souls also allot died in cellars no oxygen as the fire consumed it, atomic bomb losses by conventional weapons.
    That is what surprised me about the video of the firetruck driving along that one lane road while the forest burned around them: the engine didn't quit from lack of oxygen. There would be enough in the truck to keep the crew alive longer of course.

    That and the fact that the tires didn't catch fire. Might be a good thing if these trucks had a system whereby water could be sprayed onto the treads and outsides of the tires from the wheel wells, while stationary or under way.

    And maybe over the rest of the vehicle for that matter; a valve for each end and side and overhead?


    Going back to the Mars, the problem is to have them operating successfully anywhere in the world exposes the comparative uselessness of smaller planes, in particular the tiny single seaters and the helicopters which are probably much more profitable for the operators.

    It's like throwing a cup of water on a bonfire rather than a five gallon bucket. The larger a fire, the greater the residual heat and energy, and the greater its resistance to water or retardant etc. The same dynamic that allows a large fire to consume "green" fuel which would kill a smaller fire.

    Anyone can prove this in their own fireplace: build a good fire of dry wood then put in a green log: suddenly the residual heat and energy of the fire is consumed by the cold, wet log, the temperature of the adjoining area drops and the fire is often smothered or smoulders along until the green wood is sufficiently dry that the fire can bring it up to combustion temps and ignite it.

    A large water drop can absorb so much of the residual energy and heat of a large fire that weaker, smaller attacks can also have an impact which otherwise would just be absorbed with no noticeable effect. The only equivalent is a simultaneous drop of an equivalent quantity by multiple aircraft, but flying envelopes make that impossible apparently.

    But big fires are big money. Maybe time the insurance industry got involved, but easier to sit on their butts and pass the losses on to their customers.
    Last edited by Surpmil; 01-18-2020 at 02:48 PM.
    "Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened." W.L.S.C..

  18. #20
    Member Brewer's Avatar
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    I once talked to an old Germanicon fellow who lived through a firestorm during wwII. He related his experience to me when i was a teenager. I commented in another thread but i lived in Santa Rosa California during the Tubbs fire in October of 2017. When i got up on my roof at 1:30am the firestorm caused winds between 72-112 kph. The fire looked to be moving as fast as a car driving on a highway at a distance. The conversation i had with that German fellow many years earlier came to mind along with frankly abject terror. It was genuinely the most scared I have been in my life. But a few days into this 3 week long event, I saw a New South Wales fire truck in my neighborhood packed with Aussies ready to hand business with smiles on their faces. I hope that we can contribute to you guys in the same way.
    Luckily my house didn't burn but the flames were stopped a little less than 0.80 Km from my house (800 yards) thanks to tankers and a fire line cut at the end of the street that the fire did not jump. The next few days it was raining burned pictures, fragments of personal papers and pieces of charred clothing from the houses that burned down, some of the pictures were from people that lived 5 miles away and had been sucked into the air. Absolutely terrifying and surreal.

    We had an air force C-130's, a Boeing 747, a Dc-10 and several BAe 146s dropping retarder on the fire. The smaller grumman S2F and the helicopters seemed more useful putting out spot fires in my opinion. The grummans are usually what is stationed here locally but with large fires they are not all that effective. my understanding is limited but I think the tactics they used here in 2017 were to create fire breaks with the retarder well ahead of the fire rather than try to put out with air drops. Then have ground assets fight the fire at the breaks with hoses and backfires. The fires were between 2250 and 2500F, i think dropping water directly on it would be like taking a leak on a bonfire. The green wood on top of a already burning fire analogy that Surpmil made was spot on.

    Even before the fire was out there were law firms crawling around and insurance companies up to some monkey business. Due to the old rates some people were paying on their home owners insurance from the 1990s/1980s the policy wouldn't pay out enough to cover the cost of reconstruction so the owners put the now vacant lots up for sale.

    I am sorry you guys are going through this. I will keep you all in my prayers.

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