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Thread: Real or Fantasy Piece? No5 Help?

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    Advisory Panel Son's Avatar
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    Real or Fantasy Piece? No5 Help?

    I have came across this in another group, the poster claiming he saw it on the interweb.
    No end of google image searching has turned up a hit for any of the pics, so I am thinking it might be something he had made up and now looking for gratification.

    Over the years there have been a few workshops/ gunsmiths that have offered to turn your "old 303" into a thing of beauty by doing the whole skeletonised rifle bit, for a price of course. The SMLE skeletonised rifles one place near me did were a pretty good copy of the genuine, so I am thinking this might be a repro of something I don't think existed. Pity the barrel looks worn out, doesn't do it's credibility any favours.

    There is no writings I can find of the No5 being turned into a skeleton action (butt, bare action and about 9" of barrel) like all of the SMLE models over time and a few No4's done post WW2. Let alone a full length skeletonised rifle in the sense of the Lithgowicon made examples.

    Here are the pics of the No5 as posted and one of my skeletonised Lithgow as an example. As usual, happy to be proven wrong, but is it a fantasy piece??? Anyone got any clues?






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    Really Senior Member Daan Kemp's Avatar
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    Not impossible, but doubtfull.

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    Really Senior Member Bindi2's Avatar
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    Back in History there was a thread about one of these at a base over your way.

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    I own a Maltby No4 Mk1 that was Skeletonized, and presented by REME armourers to "RSM (WO1) J Pettifar, Royal Fusiliers" I assume on his retirement. So I guess its perfectly possible that the No5 was done in a similar way.

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    Contributing Member muffett.2008's Avatar
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    I can see two immediate advantages,
    1. Solved the wandering zero.
    2. It doesn't kick anymore.

    I remember seeing a pic of one in A.J Parkers gear.

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    I really don't know, but someone has put a lot of work into creating it. From what I can see of the photo's it looks well executed. Are they worth THAT much that it'd be worth doing it just as a money (& perhaps kudos) making exercise? I ask genuinely out of curiosity as I've no idea what they fetch, & the value of the finished article is usually the prime motivational factor in doing these things.......unless as Paul says, it was done as a one-off presentation piece.

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    I know that today is April fools day but I should like to point out that if this rifle were in the UKicon or even within the EU it would deemed to be "defectively deactivated" as it does not conform to the EU directives, and yes there are more than one each more absurd than the one before, you just could not dream it up but the bureaucrats in Brussels managed it...

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    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roger Payneicon View Post
    I really don't know, but someone has put a lot of work into creating it. From what I can see of the photo's it looks well executed. Are they worth THAT much that it'd be worth doing it just as a money (& perhaps kudos) making exercise? I ask genuinely out of curiosity as I've no idea what they fetch, & the value of the finished article is usually the prime motivational factor in doing these things.......unless as Paul says, it was done as a one-off presentation piece.
    There are frequently examples at an auction I regularly attend - they now generally make around £150 + 25% buyers premium.
    I picked on up at the Auction a few years ago for £30 missing bolt and trigger guard, (soon replaced).

    ---------- Post added at 06:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:00 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
    I know that today is April fools day but I should like to point out that if this rifle were in the UKicon or even within the EU it would deemed to be "defectively deactivated" as it does not conform to the EU directives, and yes there are more than one each more absurd than the one before, you just could not dream it up but the bureaucrats in Brussels managed it...

    I'm sure I remember Peter Laidlericon representing (as an expert witness) someone who was accused of having an unlicensed / improperly deactivated SKN rifle - if I remember correctly the final decision was if it had an SKN serial number it was originally built as a non-functioning firearm so the law did not apply, if it did not have an SKN then it was converted from a live firing rifle and the laws applied.

    That's how I remember it, maybe others know differently.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    I'm sure I remember Peter Laidlericon representing (as an expert witness) someone who was accused of having an unlicensed / improperly deactivated SKN rifle - if I remember correctly the final decision was if it had an SKN serial number it was originally built as a non-functioning firearm so the law did not apply, if it did not have an SKN then it was converted from a live firing rifle and the laws applied.

    That's how I remember it, maybe others know differently.
    I know that this has been aired on many occasions but since then the EU has issued three different directives regarding deactivating firearms. The first instructing even deactivated firearms to be "deactivated" again to bring them up to what they considered to be their new specification, the second some 18 months later then said that their first attempt at a new "deactivation" was not good enough so they had to be worked on yet again so that the only part that moved was the trigger and that was not allowed to be in contact with any other part. Now we come to the really good part having turned a deactivated gun into nothing more than a piece of welded up metal and wood which could only be used as a club you now have a legal requirement to register it with someone, in the UKicon I think it is the home office, the fact that you actually own this totally useless piece of wood and metal.
    The rifle in the original post could be owned by someone here in the UK but it would be illegal to sell, give, lend or dispose of it in any way except by handing it into the police or possibly giving it to a museum unless it had been brought up to the current EU specification including welding a rod into what is left of the barrel and welding all of the other parts in place.
    Out of a matter of interest I took my sectioned / skeletonized No4 to the Birmingham proof house several years ago when the first directive came out to find out if it could be considered to be deactivated as just like the No5 in this post it was obviously way beyond the ability to discharge any form of projectile, I was told that unless the deactivation conformed to the then EU directive then it would still classed as "defectively deactivated" and I would be breaking the law if I tried to dispose of it.
    Indecently I bought it many years ago at an auction but it had to be sold as a section 1 firearm even then as it did not have any form of certification to state that it was deactivated and the auction house quite correctly insisted that it had to entered onto my FAC where it still occupies a slot today.
    We seem to live in a mad world and with the onset of Covid 19 its become even more so. Stay safe all of you and hopefully at some point we will pop out of the other end of it all a bit older and a damn sight wiser...

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    Contributing Member mrclark303's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buccaneer View Post
    I know that this has been aired on many occasions but since then the EU has issued three different directives regarding deactivating firearms. The first instructing even deactivated firearms to be "deactivated" again to bring them up to what they considered to be their new specification, the second some 18 months later then said that their first attempt at a new "deactivation" was not good enough so they had to be worked on yet again so that the only part that moved was the trigger and that was not allowed to be in contact with any other part. Now we come to the really good part having turned a deactivated gun into nothing more than a piece of welded up metal and wood which could only be used as a club you now have a legal requirement to register it with someone, in the UKicon I think it is the home office, the fact that you actually own this totally useless piece of wood and metal.
    The rifle in the original post could be owned by someone here in the UK but it would be illegal to sell, give, lend or dispose of it in any way except by handing it into the police or possibly giving it to a museum unless it had been brought up to the current EU specification including welding a rod into what is left of the barrel and welding all of the other parts in place.
    Out of a matter of interest I took my sectioned / skeletonized No4 to the Birmingham proof house several years ago when the first directive came out to find out if it could be considered to be deactivated as just like the No5 in this post it was obviously way beyond the ability to discharge any form of projectile, I was told that unless the deactivation conformed to the then EU directive then it would still classed as "defectively deactivated" and I would be breaking the law if I tried to dispose of it.
    Indecently I bought it many years ago at an auction but it had to be sold as a section 1 firearm even then as it did not have any form of certification to state that it was deactivated and the auction house quite correctly insisted that it had to entered onto my FAC where it still occupies a slot today.
    We seem to live in a mad world and with the onset of Covid 19 its become even more so. Stay safe all of you and hopefully at some point we will pop out of the other end of it all a bit older and a damn sight wiser...
    It's a curious thing, sectioned firearms are such a grey area.

    My view is 'deactivated by other means'

    I have a collection of them, all comprehensively sectioned, totally safe and not one capable of even discharging a fart!

    All pressure baring parts are effectively deactivated by sectioning and as an additional measure, all bolt faces champhered.

    Before I bought my first example I sounded out my Police firearms team and their view was sectioned firearms arn't an issue to own off ticket, provided I bought them from an RFD and made absolutely sure no pressure baring parts are reusable in advance.

    So due diligence really.

    Other police forces may vary....

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