from what I saw the british soldiers NEVER did ANYTHING beyond the 1 (one) mm circle of exposed lead on the bullet tip after filing it down. Otherwise period accounts say that it would oh whats the word... leave bullet jackets inside the barrel at random locations. And even drunken illiterates recruited from british penal colonies realized that was a bad thing.
However I have seen accounts from hatcher talking about having 30-06 cases separate at the neck/shoulder joint and having the case neck act as a second bullet jacket and end up in the target.
Its not just about velocity with the 7x57 being superior to the .303 or the 30-40 Krag. The bullet for the 7x57 is 40 to 50 grs lighter then the others and higher velocity. That translates into lighter felt recoil which adds in properly aimed fire. The 7mm is a penetrator. Just ask the 6000 Elephants Bell shot with the 7x57.
I have seen 7x57mm that had the bullet pulled (loose neck) and reversed into the loaded case and fired. They was talk about this being during WW1 by Germans ?
practice was used in the 1910-1940 era in Russia/finland as a way to make subsonic ammunition from service ammunition. pull bullet, alter the powder load, insert bullet upside down.
World War 1, Germany used standard factory production 8x57 BALL, rotated the spritzer bullet upside down, and reduced the powder charge. Very interesting as it would turn the projectile into a sort of quasi AP round. Very hard on the rifle action. Infantry with the ammunition often needed a mallet handle to operate the bolt after firing each round.
Practice was used in the USA by a lot of hunters who couldn't afford factory softpoints. Box of Truth did testing with it in 30-06. Simply rotated the 150 grain spritzer upside down, and expansion was normally .75" and above. Entire jacket would flatten out.
Vietnam era, special ops teams used the practice with 7.62x51 to make subsonic ammunition. Government even issued special reloading kits for that purpose. Have seen ONE kit sold online.
I was sorting through a pile of accumulated loose rounds recently and came across these two early pieces both were loaded by Dominion Arsenals,both are jacketed in cupro nickel,one round nosed the other round nosed hollow pointed. I had no idea that Canadian forces had ever used the hollow point until I did a little digging online.
I don’t have any ammo as old as yours, but I do have a few rounds of WAR 1943.
the 7x57 with a round nose may not have been much superior in terms of velocity then the round nose 303 or the krag jorgenson,
but it was superior at range. That is what actually mattered in the long run.
Ironically your presupposition against the use of long range shooting with these old loads is rather stupid. Even the black powder enfields had a rear sight for 1,000 yards.
Can you even see a person at 1000 yards? Especially if that person is trying to hide from you... What if they're in khaki or camo colored clothing... Could you see them and have enough time to take a shot before they move? How about if a person takes a step back and fourth at 1000 yards in either direction... Do you think you could line your sights fast enough to actually even see the target move? I doubt you could. The front blade of the sight on basically any rifle would easily cover 3 humans torsos at that distance... Please think rationally.
Also, you have misunderstood what I'm saying... I'm not saying the cartridge couldn't do it ... The 303 cartridge very easily could make a hit at that distance, even in compressed black powder... Add yourself and a rifle into that mix and your odds are near zero at 1000. No military trained a rifle man to shoot 1000 yards back then... The British didn't even have what is now know as snipers when the black powder cartridge 303 was around. The Germans had trained snipers in WW1 ... They were trained to shoot within 400 yards, with a scope... again, it's not about if the cartridge could do past 400 yards... it easily can, people cant. The only reason 303 was black powder to start with was because the British were working on a smokeless load and couldn't get the powder formula right... 303 was designed from the beginning to be smokeless... It was only through unfortunate circumstances that it wasn't. As for long range, yes 7x57 will win but at point blank distance (300 yards) both cartridges during the round nose heavy ball phase would perform equally well.
Long range machine gun fire and volley fire was for 1000 yards...
---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------
Originally Posted by Bruce McAskill
Its not just about velocity with the 7x57 being superior to the .303 or the 30-40 Krag. The bullet for the 7x57 is 40 to 50 grs lighter then the others and higher velocity. That translates into lighter felt recoil which adds in properly aimed fire. The 7mm is a penetrator. Just ask the 6000 Elephants Bell shot with the 7x57.
303 Brit is a very soft shooting cartridge IMO for a 30 Cal bullet, probably the softest shooting 30 Cal in a battle rifle. I have trouble telling much of a difference in felt recoil between 303 and 7x57. On paper 7x57 would have less but it's very subjective... Hard for me to tell the difference. I have a hard time seeing how superior 7x57 is to 303. Within point blank range, where most shots are fired... The difference is minimal...
Can you even see a person at 1000 yards? Especially if that person is trying to hide from you... What if they're in khaki or camo colored clothing... Could you see them and have enough time to take a shot before they move? How about if a person takes a step back and fourth at 1000 yards in either direction... Do you think you could line your sights fast enough to actually even see the target move? I doubt you could. The front blade of the sight on basically any rifle would easily cover 3 humans torsos at that distance... Please think rationally.
Also, you have misunderstood what I'm saying... I'm not saying the cartridge couldn't do it ... The 303 cartridge very easily could make a hit at that distance, even in compressed black powder... Add yourself and a rifle into that mix and your odds are near zero at 1000. No military trained a rifle man to shoot 1000 yards back then... The British didn't even have what is now know as snipers when the black powder cartridge 303 was around. The Germans had trained snipers in WW1 ... They were trained to shoot within 400 yards, with a scope... again, it's not about if the cartridge could do past 400 yards... it easily can, people cant. The only reason 303 was black powder to start with was because the British were working on a smokeless load and couldn't get the powder formula right... 303 was designed from the beginning to be smokeless... It was only through unfortunate circumstances that it wasn't. As for long range, yes 7x57 will win but at point blank distance (300 yards) both cartridges during the round nose heavy ball phase would perform equally well.
Long range machine gun fire and volley fire was for 1000 yards...
---------- Post added at 06:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:23 PM ----------
303 Brit is a very soft shooting cartridge IMO for a 30 Cal bullet, probably the softest shooting 30 Cal in a battle rifle. I have trouble telling much of a difference in felt recoil between 303 and 7x57. On paper 7x57 would have less but it's very subjective... Hard for me to tell the difference. I have a hard time seeing how superior 7x57 is to 303. Within point blank range, where most shots are fired... The difference is minimal...
well if you do ever get out and about, you should spend some time online with something called google looking at shooting videos that people have made using old surplus rifles. The world considers the 91/30 to have crappy iron sights, yet there are some shooting videos where people do the "impossible" act of shooting targets past 800 yards with them, AND surplus Russian ammunition. Not a combination known for long range accuracy.
the greatest superiority of the 7x57 is the case itself, a lot smaller overall then the 303 inch is.
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Originally Posted by #1oilman
