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Thread: the Ishapore 2's 7.62x51

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  1. #11
    Really Senior Member tr63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    As a matter of interest how are you checking the Ishapore 2A / 2A1 headspace ?
    I use a standard Foster NATO 7.62x51 go, no go and field gauge set , they will close on the go gauge and will not close on the no go gauge . with the field gauge in place the bolt handle only closes to 50 % . I have a Britishicon made field gauge some where in my collection ,which is now lost some where , that the bolts would close to 60 % .
    I use these gauges for my l42a1 , l39a1 , and my Fal build's .
    Last edited by tr63; 05-10-2020 at 11:47 AM.

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  3. #12
    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tr63 View Post
    I use a standard Foster NATO 7.62x51 go, no go and field gauge set , they will close on the go gauge and will not close on the no go gauge . with the field gauge in place the bolt handle only closes to 50 % . I have a Britishicon made field gauge some where in my collection ,which is now lost some where , that the bolts would close to 60 % .
    I use these gauges for my l42a1 , l39a1 , and my Fal build's .
    There are over a dozen 'NATO 7.62 x 51 Go / No Go / Field gauges' for various different weapons from the Little L8 to the Mini-Gun, and for different tests for manufacture to maintenance.
    What is the actual measurement of yours and how does that meet the Ishapore 2A / 2A1 measurement ?

    Do you know what the 2A / 2A1 measurement is ?
    (It is different to the Enfield manufactured 7.62 x 51 (L42A1, L39, L96 etc)
    Last edited by Alan de Enfield; 05-10-2020 at 11:54 AM.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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  5. #13
    Really Senior Member tr63's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan de Enfield View Post
    There are over a dozen 'NATO 7.62 x 51 Go / No Go / Field gauges' for various different weapons from the Little L8 to the Mini-Gun, and for different tests for manufacture to maintenance.
    What is the actual measurement of yours and how does that meet the Ishapore 2A / 2A1 measurement ?

    Do you know what the 2A / 2A1 measurement is ?
    (It is different to the Enfield manufactured 7.62 x 51 (L42A1, L39, L96 etc)
    Good question . I do not know the Ishapore measurements , are they much tighter than what the Britishicon were using or are they larger in dimensions ? Did they make their chambers to NATO standards or some Indian one off chamber size so ammo from another nations would great a unsafe condition . I had some Winchester 7.62 ammo that was made under a India contract and it had the same case size as the U.S Lake city made ammo . I used it in my M1a1 and it worked with no blown primers or case stretching beyond normal for a 7.62 NATO brass case .
    Last edited by tr63; 05-10-2020 at 01:02 PM.

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    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tr63 View Post
    Good question . I do not know the Ishapore measurements , are they much tighter than what the Britishicon were using or are they larger in dimensions ? Did they make their chambers to NATO standards or some Indian one off chamber size so ammo from another nations would great a unsafe condition . I had some Winchester 7.62 ammo that was made under a India contract and it had the same case size as the U.S Lake city made ammo . I used it in my M1a1 and it worked with no blown primers or case stretching beyond normal for a 7.62 NATO brass case .
    There are specific headspace gauges made for the L1A1, the Ishapore falls 'around' the same as the L1A1, so if you can get L1A1 gauges you are 'good to go'



    Information supplied by the Indian Liaison Officer to Peter Laidlericon

    Don't say I don't try hard for you. The CHS for an Ishapore 2A1 is (They call it LOW) is GO 1.633" and HIGH or NO-GO is 1.642.

    Now the observant of you will immediately see that this just about/almost/nearly/neatly inside the 7.62mm L1A1 limits of 1.6325 and 1.643". It's a bit higher that I would have expected from a bolt action rifle BUT, it is still the generally accepted .010" between go and no-go.

    I don't know about Indian production at all. BUT, due to the fact that they made some of the rifles using bog standard old No1 bodies (which defeats the myth that they were made from higher quality steel - they weren't), it stands to reason that they'd use bog standard boltheads and bolts too. If they used different sizebolts and heads for the different calibres, then presumably, like any sensible person, they'd mark them, like we did with the 7.92mm/.303/7.62mm Bren bolts otherwise there would/could be a catastrophic failure.

    On that basis, the chamber would be bored to a depth in relation to the breeching up geometry which ensured that when ithe barrel was breeched up, the distance from the datum line in the chamber to the face of the bolthead was between 1.633 and 1.642"

    As for exactly which point in the neck that the Indian Engineers take their CHS datum from, well I can't answer due to the fact that I cannot calibrate an RFI set of CHS gauges against our own specification.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    Really Senior Member tr63's Avatar
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    Has anyone found their Ishapore 7.62 NATO rifles with a no go head space condition ? I remember when they were all over the place at gun shows selling for around $100.00 . And did not hear anyone complaining that they had head space problems . Some looked band new and some were border line junk .Of the two I have left , one is 2A 1964 the other is a 2A1 made in 1966. The 2A is not painted but with 100% parked metal and the stock is the most beautiful finished red mahogany type wood that the Indians used to stock their bolt rifles in . The condition was as found coming out of the shipping crate from the importer hand picked by me .

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    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tr63 View Post
    Has anyone found their Ishapore 7.62 NATO rifles with a no go head space condition ?
    I would suggest that very, very few people know what the headspace should be, some will have used 308 gauges but until recently India would not reveal the headspace figures.


    Headspace is a bit of a 'bogey' and it seems to worry some more than others - if we look at the Enfield 303, some get very worried if it goes past the (imaginary) 'No-Go' of 0.067" which was invented by SAMMI - obviously the LE predates SAMMI by a few years.

    The MOD dimensions are 0.064" (Go) and 0.074" (No Go), there was even authorisation to allow headspace up to 80 thou when spares were not available.


    Source :


    Index to Army Council Instructions Affecting Armourers
    1942
    Document Number 1807
    “Rifles No.1. Fitting of Boltheads”
    CHS permitted to extend to 0.08-inch if new bolt heads N.A.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

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    Last edited by Alan de Enfield; 05-10-2020 at 02:45 PM.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    Senior Member pocketshaver's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    there has been some odd destructive testing of ishapore 7.62x51 rifles, just like has been done to mosin nagant rifles.



    There has been some reports that the testers lodged a milspec bullet in the barrel under the rear sight, and fired a standard cartridge. And the only thing that happened was a blown barrel, and recievers were still reusable.


    Does the ishapore rifle actually NEED the 7.62x51 version meet the old testing process for the .303 version? Ive seen speculation on forums that the oiled cartridge was simply a way to get any older Enfield Rifleicon killed during if rebarrelled during a repair cycle for it.

    Some speculation that it was only done because of the .303 having a rim.

    It is interesting that given the fact that you CANT accurately calculate the forces created by an oiled cartridge as you cant get identical oil coverage and cant compensate for variations in the powder charge.

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    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
    Does the ishapore rifle actually NEED the 7.62x51 version meet the old testing process for the .303 version?
    You will have seen in the extract from the article that the Ishapore 2A was in fact tested in accordance with the NATO requirements.

    Quote Originally Posted by pocketshaver View Post
    Ive seen speculation on forums that the oiled cartridge was simply a way to get any older Enfield Rifleicon killed during if rebarrelled during a repair cycle for it.
    I'm not sure if you are a Troll, are just 'anti Britishicon' or 'anti-Enfield', are inventing this fake news or are frequenting some very strange forums.

    An 'oiled round' would be very unlikely to be used during a 'repair cycle' (whatever that is) it would only be used on initial proving of the rifle.
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

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    Advisory Panel Brian Dick's Avatar
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    Many of the RFI 2A/2A1 rifles imported were out of specification for headspace and other reasons. I've repaired several here and gauged them with L39/L42 gauges using nos long bolt heads so they went out of here in match specification! The Indian measurements weren't available in those days and it took Peter over a year to get them via the Indian liaison officer at Warminster. The SAAMI Field gauge is fine to check them with as it, (Forster), is 1.638. All that being said: In my humble opinion, the 2A/2A1 is still a Barney Fife rifle. "Here's your cartridge, please put it in your pocket". They're fine to shoot with ball ammo once in a while but I'd never make one my favorite range rifle.

    ---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

    AdE: The .303 .067 is actually a Vickers MMG gauge turned No-Go gauge by American SAAMI/collectors/shooters.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Dickicon View Post
    They're fine to shoot with ball ammo once in a while but I'd never make one my favorite range rifle.
    I'm glad now I didn't bother with one. I always looked at them with a bit of mistrust without any grounds until now.
    Regards, Jim

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