Rifle ser. #s on British No.4 Mk I(T) scope mounts?

[Minnesota Joe]

When discussing the No.4 Mk I(T), Skennerton states that "[t]he rifle serial numbers should not appear on the telescope or mounts on the British rifle, although the Canadian No. 4 equipments have the rifle serial number marked on the telescopic sight mount." (Skennerton, The Lee-Enfield, p. 230). Really? So I should scream "FAKE" at what appears to be a correct and matching BSA Shirley No. 4(T) with Holland & Holland conversion marks sporting a No.32 MkI scope that has the rifle's serial number on the mount? REALLY? I thought we all wanted serial numbered mounts? I'm curious to know if any other folks can corroborate Skennerton on his point about the British rifle and an absolute absence of serial numbered mounts. Thanks.

Information

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[jmoore]

I believe that mounts were numbered post war, starting about 1948(?).Thats also when the mid swivel was incorporated on all rifles still in service. No references at hand, so.....
Another question is when were scope numbers first applied to the stock wrist. It would appear that several trials rifles w/ original stocks have scope numbers unusually high for their build dates.

[jimmybob9]

Yep. Serial numbers were only placed on mounts Post war or when the rifle was millsup. Different unit armorers had their own qwurks about what had to be done to rifles.

Trigger guard bolt was replaced after September 1944 with the swing swivel, any rifle before then had a normal screw in the guard.

[Peter Laidler]

Numbering No4T telescope brackets wasn't an Armourers whim thing but an instruction AFTER 'Instructions for Armourers' during the very short time of 'SmallArms Instructions' (SAI's) but prior to the current (?) EMER's. As a result, it got lost in the changeover due to the fact that SAI's were a simple printed paper note that went to Regimental Quartermasters and didn't get passed down the chain of command to the Armourers. So there was both authority AND detaled instructions.

The REASON for numbering the bracket was that Armourers soon found that while the telescope and rifle were cross matched on the tin and the butt, there was no cross matching of the bracket. This was the MOST important cross match of all because while the telescopes were all pretty well interchangeable (within the bounds of reason of course) due to the bracket being line bored/collimated to the bore of the rifle. The bracket definately IS NOT inmterchangeable. Though they might FIT, that isn't the same as interchangeability.

As a result, if a bracket was changed from one rifle to another, then adjusted to become a perfect mechanical fit AND allowed the centralised telescope to correctly align with the bore, only then was it was numbered to the rifle. This was renumbered/stamped before securing the telescope into the cradles. After all, you don't want to stamp the cradle with a number while the telescope is in place ....., not twice you won't!

As a general rule of thumb, but not definitive by any means, if your bracket IS numbered, then it means that it has been changed to another rifle. After all, just ask yourself WHY would it be numbered if it was original and never been separated? The bracket is numbered because it's more important to keep THIS matched with the rifle than the telescope.

[Amatikulu]

Peter,

If you have a bracket that is not matched to your rifle, is there a simple technique that you could use to see if the bracket is colimated to the bore of the rifle?

Assuming there is a simple method, what would the tolerance be for a No.4 Mark 1 (T)?

[Peter Laidler]

There is a simple test to see whether a bracket is right for your rifle. But if it's NOT ....................

I have been through this several times, so here goes again. Rotate the telescope through 360 degrees while in a set of vee blocks while looking through it at a distant aiming point (the DAP). While doing this, adjust the graticule so that the tip of the pointer remains on the DAP. Keep the grat where it is and set the range and deflection drums to '0'. The telescope is now 'centralised. Put it into the bracket and clamp-up.
Next bit is VERY simplified.
Fit bracket to rifle. Boresight barrel onto DAP. The tip of the pointer SHOULD fall onto the DAP too...... give or take a few clicks up-down-left-right

It probably won't line up well. BUT it is in THIS position that it SHOULD. Because this way, you know that you have the full range of adjustments AND that when you're using the telescope, you will only be using the central 1/3 of the lens areas, where there is the least chance of optical error.

That id a VERY simplified method of doing it. Maybe I should hold a class somewhere of how we did it. It's a very practical lesson and doesn't do theory!

How you adjust the bracket to get the telescope to align PERFECTLY is something for another day.

[Amatikulu]

Thanks for that info. Let me know when the class is and I'll sign up