Top 5 M1 Carbine

[EddieM]

Hello fellows.

Which would be your top 5 M1 Carbine regarding these topics?:

- Quality
- Accuracy
- Value
Rgegards, Eddie

---------- Post added at 07:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:38 AM ----------

Hello fellows,

Would be more collectible an Inland with SN 2490XX than an Inland SN 5,038,7XX? The 2nd has less wear.
Regards, Eddie

[EddieM]

wrong post

[DaveHH]

Since you put it here Eddie, it's an interesting talking point.
On paper they were all the same, all the parts interchange (With 6M that is remarkable). Larry Ruth says that NPM was the best for quality, and I would imagine that Underwood was right there with them. Personal opinion I think that the Inland finish is kind of so-so. Winchester is overrated but still very good.
Accuracy: It is a crap shoot as the carbine and cartridge are just not made to be accurate. Some carbines shoot very well when used correctly and some don't. But don't is still good enough. If you are inside 100 yds and standing still, you are a dead goose, any carbine will do that. There are hundreds of thousands of dead Germans, Koreans Japanese and Chinese who would testify to this if they could. Consider Eddie that when inside around 60 yards most soldiers don't even use sights, it is a point shoot game and they don't miss that often if they live long enough to learn this.

Value? At this point they are all worth $1000 up if they are even half way nice so.......

[tenOC]

There is a thing that Irwin Pedersen did which had to have been done for quality. They relieved the rear sight dove tail so that the bearing point of the sight was a smaller area than any other Carbine. Was it a benefit? Maybe not, but at the same time I haven't noticed that their rear sight installs didn't work as well as any other Carbine maker. They staked differently than others as well.

They did a similar thing in the mag catch area so there is less contact from the housing to the catch, lessening potential binding. Was that a benefit? Probably it was, when you consider that dirt and gunk was causing binding with the original thick rail catches. Later, all catches were thinned to increase the tolerance to prevent dirt fouling. IP housings probably didn't have as pronounced of a problem since they addressed it from the beginning. The thinner catch was probably an easier fix, but with the orig thickness, IP was ahead of the curve.

It's been claimed that IP was so crappy that they couldn't get a single Carbine approved. Brian Q has stated that the contract that IP had was different than the other (or most other) manufacturers. I believe he stated that IP had a cost-plus contract whereas the other makers had a per-unit priced contract. A cost plus is not favorable to the payer, but it is favorable to the payee and can yield a higher quality product since the maker gets reimbursed "plus".

I've got some Rockola parts that just look awful in regards to manufacturing. Have you seen IP stuff that looks poorly made?

[Singer B]

I would have to say whatever M1 you had in your hands when the crap is hitting the fan. As mentioned above, they are all basically the same and the only things that make one "better" or more valuable than the others is condition and the number initially built by the manufacturer.

[EddieM]

Since you put it here Eddie, it's an interesting talking point.
On paper they were all the same, all the parts interchange (With 6M that is remarkable). Larry Ruth says that NPM was the best for quality, and I would imagine that Underwood was right there with them. Personal opinion I think that the Inland finish is kind of so-so. Winchester is overrated but still very good.
Accuracy: It is a crap shoot as the carbine and cartridge are just not made to be accurate. Some carbines shoot very well when used correctly and some don't. But don't is still good enough. If you are inside 100 yds and standing still, you are a dead goose, any carbine will do that. There are hundreds of thousands of dead Germans, Koreans Japanese and Chinese who would testify to this if they could. Consider Eddie that when inside around 60 yards most soldiers don't even use sights, it is a point shoot game and they don't miss that often if they live long enough to learn this.

Value? At this point they are all worth $1000 up if they are even half way nice so.......

Hello Dave,

Thank you for your reply, take a look at this video the guy shoot at 300 yards

[painter777]

If I could add to Ten's Reply,

Brothers Robert and Earle Irwin were already filling orders for furniture needed by Ordnance when they stepped into a 'Arranged agreement' at the Ordnance Departments urging with John Pedersen. A Shotgun Wedding would best describe it.
Quoting Robert Irwin " Pedersen was a capable gun designer, he was not a practical production man".

I think this was a polite way of saying getting Pedersen in to Mass Production mode was a problem. There was no time for hand fitting like done in Pedersen's earlier gun making career. Pedersen's hiring of George Oliver to Supervise and set up machinery and actual manufacturing was a disaster. Oliver was said to have one speed and a chronic procrastinator. Oliver had no experience dealing with or lobbying Ordnance for needed equipment. Compare that to the hard nosed Doerfner's style of saying NO.

Though they entered a contract based on a cost-plus basis. Robert Irwin also noted roughly from my memory that: Pedersen didn't push toward assembly line type production and preferred the one at a time perfection style.
Pedersen was well known for his earlier Pre WWII designs on the East coast. He had the connections out East, but was sent to Detroit Ord Dep.
Anyone ever wonder why ?
But this was the Detroit Ordnance Department that already knew the Irwins from the Co-Op they helped form of the Grand River Valley. A group of local businesses put together to offer and receive War Time contracts. Doerfner with his General Motors contacts had deep connections in the Detroit Ord Dept.

Production was delayed while trying to get all the in short supply/needed machinery.
IR-IP had start up problems like all the prime makers did.
Read about all the mis-threaded barrels WRA had to fix and recall for one example.
Doerfner came in roughly the first of Dec 1942 to a mess. Parts being hand fitted because of the lack of machinery.
The use of templates that required constant recalculating and refitting from station to the next station/ step was log jamming any production.
Doerfner noted this right away.
Sound like it's getting pricey $$ now? (Cost-Plus++)
As late as IIRC Feb of 1943 IR-IP still wasn't up to speed on needed equipment.
Contract cancelled in March. SG takes over April 1.

The Irwin family was able to keep a government contract to continue making stocks for the carbine effort after the cancelled IP contract. In fact when Saginaw Steering Gear took over the operations, the Irwin employees became employees of Saginaw Gear.
John Pedersen held no shares in the Irwin-Pedersen Arms Company and functioned as the arms consultant, with a monthly salary of $2000.

The Irwins were having problems with John Pedersen, George Oliver, Ordnance Sub Contractors, Inspectors and the Army Ordnance Department in Detroit.
In Robert Irwin's log he tells of securing parts CLEARED by inspectors at other carbine manufacturers, only to have inspectors reject them at his plant.
Robert Irwin knew their overhead and cost per unit was to high.
In May of 42 the Irwins learned, without conferring with them that John Pedersen had hired George Oliver of the E.W. Bliss Company in Brooklyn, New York as a production manager at a annual salary of $18,000 and was sending him to Grand Rapids to supervise and oversee the set up of machinery along with manufacturing.
A pricey sum in it's day.

Anyone catch that: May of 42..... Pedersen hires Oliver to supervise and oversee the set up of machinery along with manufacturing.
And repeating from above: Doerfner came in roughly the first of Dec 1942 to a mess. Parts being hand fitted because of the lack of machinery.

Much of this info comes from a daily log kept by Mr. Robert Irwin during the War Time Production.
The Irwin Seating Company is still in business today. They've been kind enough to pass along to me excerpts from Robert's log during WWII.

IP Parts: Though Robert Irwin seen that Pedersen was not a Production man. He noted he was a perfectionist. Pedersen's earlier projects were considered some of the best built arms in the US (See Hatchers opinion). IMO I would expect any IP made part or receiver made that was accepted as being very high quality.

Lastly to Eddie,
My Top M1 Carbine would be my Fathers. Snuck home from the Philippines with the help of 2 of his Aussie friends.

[EddieM]

There is a thing that Irwin Pedersen did which had to have been done for quality. They relieved the rear sight dove tail so that the bearing point of the sight was a smaller area than any other Carbine. Was it a benefit? Maybe not, but at the same time I haven't noticed that their rear sight installs didn't work as well as any other Carbine maker. They staked differently than others as well.

They did a similar thing in the mag catch area so there is less contact from the housing to the catch, lessening potential binding. Was that a benefit? Probably it was, when you consider that dirt and gunk was causing binding with the original thick rail catches. Later, all catches were thinned to increase the tolerance to prevent dirt fouling. IP housings probably didn't have as pronounced of a problem since they addressed it from the beginning. The thinner catch was probably an easier fix, but with the orig thickness, IP was ahead of the curve.

It's been claimed that IP was so crappy that they couldn't get a single Carbine approved. Brian Q has stated that the contract that IP had was different than the other (or most other) manufacturers. I believe he stated that IP had a cost-plus contract whereas the other makers had a per-unit priced contract. A cost plus is not favorable to the payer, but it is favorable to the payee and can yield a higher quality product since the maker gets reimbursed "plus".

I've got some Rockola parts that just look awful in regards to manufacturing. Have you seen IP stuff that looks poorly made?

Hey TenOc,
Interesting what you bring about IP. I´m new with the M1 carbines so I hadn't seen some IP parts yet.
What do you mean about Rockola parts?
Eddie

[EddieM]

I would have to say whatever M1 you had in your hands when the crap is hitting the fan. As mentioned above, they are all basically the same and the only things that make one "better" or more valuable than the others is condition and the number initially built by the manufacturer.

Hey Singer,
I know what you mean, in the paper all of the M1s should be the very same, but not everyone has the same ability or skills to do the very same job or finish. Even the same maker has differences in them final product.
I agree with you about the condition and the number built.
Eddie

[EddieM]

If I could add to Ten's Reply,

Brothers Robert and Earle Irwin were already filling orders for furniture needed by Ordnance when they stepped into a 'Arranged agreement' at the Ordnance Departments urging with John Pedersen. A Shotgun Wedding would best describe it.
Quoting Robert Irwin " Pedersen was a capable gun designer, he was not a practical production man".

I think this was a polite way of saying getting Pedersen in to Mass Production mode was a problem. There was no time for hand fitting like done in Pedersen's earlier gun making career. Pedersen's hiring of George Oliver to Supervise and set up machinery and actual manufacturing was a disaster. Oliver was said to have one speed and a chronic procrastinator. Oliver had no experience dealing with or lobbying Ordnance for needed equipment. Compare that to the hard nosed Doerfner's style of saying NO.

Though they entered a contract based on a cost-plus basis. Robert Irwin also noted roughly from my memory that: Pedersen didn't push toward assembly line type production and preferred the one at a time perfection style.
Pedersen was well known for his earlier Pre WWII designs on the East coast. He had the connections out East, but was sent to Detroit Ord Dep.
Anyone ever wonder why ?
But this was the Detroit Ordnance Department that already knew the Irwins from the Co-Op they helped form of the Grand River Valley. A group of local businesses put together to offer and receive War Time contracts. Doerfner with his General Motors contacts had deep connections in the Detroit Ord Dept.

Production was delayed while trying to get all the in short supply/needed machinery.
IR-IP had start up problems like all the prime makers did.
Read about all the mis-threaded barrels WRA had to fix and recall for one example.
Doerfner came in roughly the first of Dec 1942 to a mess. Parts being hand fitted because of the lack of machinery.
The use of templates that required constant recalculating and refitting from station to the next station/ step was log jamming any production.
Doerfner noted this right away.
Sound like it's getting pricey $$ now? (Cost-Plus++)
As late as IIRC Feb of 1943 IR-IP still wasn't up to speed on needed equipment.
Contract cancelled in March. SG takes over April 1.

The Irwin family was able to keep a government contract to continue making stocks for the carbine effort after the cancelled IP contract. In fact when Saginaw Steering Gear took over the operations, the Irwin employees became employees of Saginaw Gear.
John Pedersen held no shares in the Irwin-Pedersen Arms Company and functioned as the arms consultant, with a monthly salary of $2000.

The Irwins were having problems with John Pedersen, George Oliver, Ordnance Sub Contractors, Inspectors and the Army Ordnance Department in Detroit.
In Robert Irwin's log he tells of securing parts CLEARED by inspectors at other carbine manufacturers, only to have inspectors reject them at his plant.
Robert Irwin knew their overhead and cost per unit was to high.
In May of 42 the Irwins learned, without conferring with them that John Pedersen had hired George Oliver of the E.W. Bliss Company in Brooklyn, New York as a production manager at a annual salary of $18,000 and was sending him to Grand Rapids to supervise and oversee the set up of machinery along with manufacturing.
A pricey sum in it's day.

Anyone catch that: May of 42..... Pedersen hires Oliver to supervise and oversee the set up of machinery along with manufacturing.
And repeating from above: Doerfner came in roughly the first of Dec 1942 to a mess. Parts being hand fitted because of the lack of machinery.

Much of this info comes from a daily log kept by Mr. Robert Irwin during the War Time Production.
The Irwin Seating Company is still in business today. They've been kind enough to pass along to me excerpts from Robert's log during WWII.

IP Parts: Though Robert Irwin seen that Pedersen was not a Production man. He noted he was a perfectionist. Pedersen's earlier projects were considered some of the best built arms in the US (See Hatchers opinion). IMO I would expect any IP made part or receiver made that was accepted as being very high quality.

Lastly to Eddie,
My Top M1 Carbine would be my Fathers. Snuck home from the Philippines with the help of 2 of his Aussie friends.

Hola Carlito,
I really appreciate your great reply, thank you compadre.
Would be awesome to have your father's M1, did he told you which maker was from?
Eddie
Eddie