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  1. #51
    Senior Member Ben Cartwright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb in oregon View Post
    Essentially that is the thought process of an "originalist" who refuses to accept anything other than what might have (I emphasize might as all records are not available these days concerning the entire production of the M1icon Carbine during wartime needs) come directly from any factory which includes carbines that have gone thru the system of repair and refurbishment. I'm not so picky.
    I agree with you, I like these guns because they came straight from the Italianicon Army or Police and before that the US Army, should not have had any bubbas changing parts. I want to find out all I can of my rifle but feel it is "original as released from service" (not factory).

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  3. #52
    Really Senior Member jond41403's Avatar
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    TenOC is right and is trying to prevent the spread of misinformation. You guys are talking about two totally different things anyhow. When the guys that have been around a very long time in this field tell you something, you should feel more of an urge to learn instead of push back.jmo

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  6. #53
    Senior Member Ben Cartwright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jond41403 View Post
    TenOC is right and is trying to prevent the spread of misinformation. You guys are talking about two totally different things anyhow. When the guys that have been around a very long time in this field tell you something, you should feel more of an urge to learn instead of push back.jmo
    I thought I was trying to learn and not pushing back.

  7. #54
    Really Senior Member tenOC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eb in oregon View Post
    Essentially that is the thought process of an "originalist" who refuses to accept anything other than what might have (I emphasize might as all records are not available these days concerning the entire production of the M1icon Carbine during wartime needs) come directly from any factory which includes carbines that have gone thru the system of repair and refurbishment. I'm not so picky.
    Totally false. Original config and rebuilds have nothing in common regarding parts. That is the actuality of the situation. We know how they were originally assembled and with what parts. For 2 years a couple guys create an account and are intensely trying to spread misinformation about how they were assembled. The transfer data for original manufacture is/was available to the largest degree. The parts are coded to the largest degree. You can't fool the community. Those people I described get banned on boards or get told to knock if off before they get banned, but they pop up again as new users.

    If you're going to say we don't know how they were assembled, you'll easily be proved wrong. You can say we don't know what parts were utilized on rebuilds because that's true. Midway Carbines are mostly mixed parts, some refurbs and refinished.
    There is a large number of original or nearly original Carbines still in existence.
    I don't even focus on originals and even I know all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Cartwright View Post
    The barrel on my Quality has "Rock-ola" but it also has a "P" proof mark that appears to be about 1/8" high. The trigger group only has "W"'s so would that be from some sub-contractor who coded it for Winchester but sent it to Quality?
    Your Carbine is not as it left the factory. Midway falsely claimed these have not been refurbished. Some are refinished, even.

    Rockola provided a very large percentage of barrels to Quality Hardware and they're stamped with the proofing I described. Overall size doesn't reveal what an image does. Winchester provided a tiny number percentage wise and everyone knows they never used a P proofing. That's why I used that example. When Quality used Winchester barrels they stamped a P on the barrel. They used other barrels too.
    He said you're pushing back because I already said your Carbine has swapped trigger group parts.
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  8. #55
    Senior Member Ben Cartwright's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tenOC View Post

    Your Carbine is not as it left the factory. Midway falsely claimed these have not been refurbished. Some are refinished, even.

    He said you're pushing back because I already said your Carbine has swapped trigger group parts.
    Thank you for the clarification. I don't mind what parts might have been swapped out as I think, but could be wrong, that that was done durring or after WWII by the U.S. or by Italyicon after they got it for the Army. I could be wrong but I think that the Midway carbines are "as they came from storage" and not played around with by the importer/Midway/ or some other owner. I understood when Midway was advertising that they were original WWII as they left the factory that was most likely BS, but I liked the history on them that they were in Europe, probably as spares most likely not in actual combat but you never know (they can't talk) and then were given to Italy and during their service lifetime either with the US or with Italy they were worked on with new sights and safeties and probably more. But to me that is more interesting than what I see at the gunshows with no history to them other than they are a carbine. My Dad's K-Bar he carried on Saipan (Bronze Star) and Iwo Jima (survived) is a case in point, you can't prove its history but I was given it by him and he told me the story.

    I am trying to find out all I can about this carbine (as well as my two Winchesters) so I know more about it. Already I have learned a lot and hope to learn a lot more. Thanks to you and others I am find out things I never knew and appreciate it. For example about the significance about the P on the Rock-ola barrel and the different parts.

    As I mentioned I think and hope I am right that all the changes to the M1icon were done by the US Army or the Italians not by a collector along the way, I just like the story.

    Finally I really like the way it looks, whether refinished or not, there is a real nice patina to the stock and yet some damage and slightly beat up, it wasn't a safe queen. One of my Winchesters had the stock refinished, although done really well with the cartouches still visible it is too shiny for my tastes. One of my #5's is that way, although not shiny has a nice stock, the other I really like looks like it was dragged by the Rat Patrol for about 10 miles behind a jeep.


    I am happy with the M1 and hope to learn more about it and about them in general.

  9. #56
    Really Senior Member tenOC's Avatar
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    And that's what keeps most of us engaged in this hobby. Be more aware of the term you're using, "collectors", and the assertion you're making against collectors who preserve this hobby.

    "Buyers" are probably the ones swapping things around on Carbines you see at shows. Buyers, Bubba, flippers and humpers. Some are collectors who acquired humped stuff. Some collectors look to buy messed with Carbines, messed with by newbs and Bubba, because it's already a screwed up Carbine and not much matters. I bought a restored WRA Garandicon that looked terrible. I doubt a collector did it. But it had rare parts I was glad to take off it. I'll resell it eventually, but I didn't mess this thing up.

    I feel confident that Midway Carbines are already being presented online in pics with parts swapped by buyers and, stocks being the easiest thing swapped. Almost no collectors bought them. Newbies did. Do I believe a Carbine arrived from Italyicon with a polyurethane finish and it happens to be a match for the Carbine maker? No.

    Historically it's the unknowing and Bubba who sanded the stock, filled the oiler and sling cut, swapped the sight, safety and added a scope on a slicked up shiny stock. Much later on collectors try to revive Bubba'd guns. In recent times flippers and humpers have been the people you are calling collectors since there's so much money in these now.

    "Collectors" as a term doesn't define anybody the same way. Everybody knows I'm very outspoken on defending Carbines, but they also know I haven't focused on original Carbines and am not an originalist. I have an original parts late Win some Newb bubba'd. It was a pristine original finish someone checkered the stock, filled the stock holes, jeweled the bolt and cut the bayo lug off of a very collectible High C Winchester barrel band. They turned a $200 band into junk. I sanded the stock, refinish oiled and replaced the bolt.
    My sig: Consider adding IP/S'G's to my registry. I've found 3 sets of consecutives & WILL immediately inform you of one if you won't cut my throat like someone else did, I do it to help us both. https://grandrapids.wufoo.com/forms/zzlnt0519k86xs/

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  11. #57
    Member leeshall's Avatar
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  12. #58
    Senior Member Ben Cartwright's Avatar
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    tenOC
    I agree I used the term "collector" when I should have used bubba or flipper - I do a lot of gun shows displaying my world class Boston Police collection (Home - Boston Police Fan site Memorabilia Equipment Photographs) and walk around before the show opens and check out the carbines and then see people buying them some you know are collectors, carefully going over the carbine, others are most likely flippers.
    I never paid attention to the makeup of my 2 M1icon's before but now am starting too. My M1 with # 1211xxx has the type 3 bayonet lug adjustable sights flip safety, not I took it apart and at first could read the stamp on the trigger group, turned out to be Inland. It came from CMPicon in 2016 so I have no idea of its history. Not sure if CMP got them from the private sector or from imports or where, no idea, same with my CMP from 2009. Wish I knew more about their history. That is why I like the Midway ones.
    Love the stock but it seems like it really isn't smooth, the "grain" is raised, the "dark" areas seem to raised just a bit. I don't plan to do anything except maybe carefully wipe it down with some RLO.

    ALSO I learned today how to put the sling on! It may sound stupid (stupid is as stupid does) but when I put it on my Win I had forced the oiler in with the sling around it. Well today I managed to realize or find out that you put the oiler in the slot first and then feed the strap in one side and around and back out, easy peasy, I had no idea LOL

    I don't want to take it apart too much since the front band is a very tight fit and backing out the screw as much as I dare it is tough to slide it over the catch and off the wood and I don't want to break anything.

  13. #59
    Really Senior Member DaveHH's Avatar
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    This is a very nice carbine. Are you aware that Quality Hardware made exactly ONE part for their carbines? The receiver, and they chose an improved type of spring tube design, one that everyone else stopped producing when they received fresh deep hole drilling machines. So automatically every other part came from someone else.
    My NPM is an Italianicon return bought from CMPicon, it has an original barrel and happens to have a NPM N16 trigger housing filled with Winchester parts. The stock is a beat up Inland I cut with a wonderful color and fit. This gun shoots 9-10 ring w/a SR-1 target at 100 yards.
    Yours has enough rare parts to make up hundreds of dollars of value. You have a genuine, guaranteed type 1 band, try finding one today that isn't fake. I would wager that it shoots lights out since that type 3 rear sight was installed at an armory, not pounded in backwards by Joe Smokem in his garage. I suspect that type 2 bands are even more valuable since they were only used for a short while.
    I would be very happy with your purchase and I wouldn't change a thing. It is a little jewel at today's prices for these weapons.
    Last edited by DaveHH; 06-15-2021 at 03:39 PM.

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  15. #60
    Senior Member Ben Cartwright's Avatar
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    DaveHH
    Thank you very much, I AM very happy with the purchase, it is a very nice looking carbine and I put what I think is an original sling on it, not sure if it is original as no markings I can find but it is faded and soft from years of use by someone. I put the sling on because I cannot do steps with my bad knees without holding onto both railings I installed in our inside staircases and I can sling the rifle over my shoulder. I am not planning to change anything on it and will just keep it clean and take it shooting at the range.

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