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  1. #91
    Really Senior Member DaveHH's Avatar
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    I would be very surprised if The US would be giving the Italians carbines in 1944. The US invaded Sicily in July 1943 and Italy surrendered in Sept 1943. Italy was in complete chaos after the surrender. Most of the larger cities were left with no water, sewer or food by the Germans. The Germans wrecked the water systems on purpose to leave the US with one gigantic headache. If the Italianicon police were needed to help keep order, there were tons of Italian weapons available and plenty of ammunition and trained men to use it.

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  4. #92
    Member Matt_X's Avatar
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    I am no expert on this. Late 1944 is the timeframe a couple sources have given for Allied re-equipping Italianicon forces. This entirely makes sense when looking at the timeline and organizations.

    Shortly after Marshal Badoglio took over, secret negotiations about surrender to the Allies began. As you may know, the Armistice of Cassibile became public a little off schedule (at least from the Italian point of view). Regardless, it probably would not have been enough to block Operation Achse, which effectively broke the Royal Italian Army. The remnants had to be rebuilt, which took time.

    The first combat unit to be formed to fight with the Allies with the 1st Motorized Group (Nov 1943). By the Spring of 1944 this evolved into the Italian Liberation Corps, consisting of two Divisions of roughly 24,000 soldiers. But in Sept 1944 they were taken off the line and re-organized and requiped into a yet larger force called Italian Co-belligerent Army.

    Operation Achse and the need for Allied forces to be armed with ammunition that can be resupplied make it farily apparent why they would be re-equipped with Allied weapons. How many of those where US small arms, and whether any carbines were issued at that time, I don't know. All I'm saying is that it's possible.

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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_X View Post
    Late 1944 is the timeframe a couple sources have given for Allied re-equipping Italianicon forces.
    I can't remember where, but I saw a statement from Midway saying that the last paper trail for these carbines was in some European country other than Italy, they suspect only one arsenal refurb must have happened in Europe, and that there were no other surviving paper trails for them ending up in Italy.

    For anyone who didn't get one of these that wanted one (they sold out in <30 minutes)...https://www.classicfirearms.com is selling off a bunch that came out of Africa. I just bought an Underwood in a fit of Black Friday passion. I don't think the condition will be as nice as the Midway's have been. They almost all have late upper bands. They still have some of various manufacturers. Now I need to find a pre-war typewriter that matches to restore alongside.

  7. #94
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    @ssgross,
    I believe I read these carbines came from all over Europe, in a Midway statement.. but IDK.

    I was curious about the Midway / Italians and why a German Exporter was used?
    Maybe because PW Arms does a lot of business with them ?
    And has any of the Midways been reported with the FAT / Date Stamp on the rear of the barrel ?

    Below from my reply #17 here:
    https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=74117&page=2

    3,120 Carbines Reported on US Customs Report
    Below is the Exporter: LIMEX GMBH of Germanyicon US Customs Record and Bill of Laden for the M1icon Carbines to Importer PW ARMS INC.
    Appears that PW ARMS INC. is their largest trading partner.......
    When Link below is open, Click on Importers. You'll see how big PW Arms piece of the pie is.
    https://www.importgenius.com/suppliers/limex-gmbh

    I'm not a member of this Import Web Sight and don't have access back to the May 2021 posted US Customs Bill of Laden records to show you, but I did copy and paste it at the time:

    #4... BILL OF LADING...... HLCUHAM210277893
    PRODUCT.................RIFLE 3120 PCS M1 RIFLE HS CODE 9303 3000
    IMPORTER............... PW ARMS INC.
    SUPPLIER................. LIMEX GMBH
    ARRIVAL DATE..........2021-04-02
    COUNTRY OF ORIGIN..GERMANY
    GROSS WEIGHT KGS.... 22507 KGS
    QUANTITY................ 151 PCS

    There was also another shipment listed (#5) from LIMEX GMBH at the same time going to PW Arms.
    I was curious if #5 on the list Code: HS CODE 9301 9000 Could possibly be spare parts.
    Is listed as '297 PIECES RIFLES'
    The HS Code 9301 90.00 I believe stands for Harmonized Schedule Tarif of European Union.
    Per their description this code falls in to: 'Other'. Possibly meaning parts kits, Maybe barrels, magazines etc?
    But again IDK. This will take someone better schooled than myself to get to the bottom of.

    Lastly, Luckily for Midway, PW Arms and those who purchased that this deal went down before we had all the Freighters mooring by anchor!
    Charlie-Painter777

    A Country Has No Greater Responsibility Than To Care For Those Who Served...

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  9. #95
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Great sleuthing Charlie?
    For your next assignment...which country in Africa did the classicfirearms.com come from? I didn't see any statements from them, but in one of their review videos mentioned they came from Africa. I'll do another thread with the one I just bought.

  10. #96
    Really Senior Member DaveHH's Avatar
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