1898 Krag with "E 21" on the buttstock

[donki1967]

I allow myself to post some photos of my KJ, also dated 1902...
Attachment 120942Attachment 120943Attachment 120944Attachment 120945
there are two things in common between yours and mine!

Information

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[Alex.California]

Thanks -- its looking great now that it has been cleaned further and the finish has settled into a more normal color for its age than when I first took off the urethane. I have two boxes of ammunition on the way, and will follow your advice on disassembling it to be able to clean it properly prior to taking it to the range.

[butlersrangers]

Enjoy your Krag! It likely saw use, back in the day, on the Sea Girt Range in New Jersey.

Attachment 120842

[rcathey]

the Sea Girt Range

Is that where they did the testing with Trapdoors? Shooting some ridiculous distance?

[Daan Kemp]

Shooting some ridiculous distance?

As experience and knowledge catches up with us, I often wonder what the purpose of military rifle sights beyond 300meters was. What was the purpose except for competition? I know about volley firing at extreme distances but examples are rare. And claiming adjusting 'windage' as an essential to military rifle sights is clearly a contradiction to teaching riflemen to aim off for wind.

I haven't researched this but examples of planned combat rifle use past about 200meters is rare, that is why we have machineguns and mortars.

Anybody have facts for this? Opinions welcome, but facts would be nice.

[butlersrangers]

I don't know about the testing of Model 1873 Springfield Rifles. After Creedmore Range in New York was closed down, Sea Girt, New Jersey became quite the Hot Bed of U.S. Rifle Shooting.

Most of the early National Matches, starting in 1903, were held there, until Camp Perry opened around 1907-08.

[rcathey]

I was mistaken. This testing was performed on a beach at Sandy Hook:

http://usarmorment.com/pdf/45-70.pdf

[butlersrangers]

IIRC - During some South African War battles, 'Boer' Riflemen inflicted very heavy casualties and 'pinned down' massed British Troops with accurate long range fire, likely at 500 to 1,000 yards.
In some situations, the clever 'Boers' prepared the 'battlefield', by marking the approaches to their positions with seemingly discarded tin pie-plates, accurately marking the distances at 100 yard intervals.

With accurate & well sighted model 1893 Mausers, quality 7mm ammo, open ground with marked ranges, it is easy to imagine how skilled shooters in good defensive positions could "Rain Hell" on massed infantry.

British Infantry rifles from the earliest Lee-Metfords to pre-WW1 Short Magazine Lee-Enfields and Pattern 1914 Enfields carried long range auxiliary 'volley sights'. I am not aware if these 'off-set' sights were ever used effectively.
They were later dispensed with during war-time manufacture and later removed during FTR/rebuilding.

Improvements and changes in machinegun use and artillery tactics did much to make what once seemed good ideas with rifle sights seem rather silly.

BTW - This thread started with a Krag-Jorgensen rifle. It should be mentioned that a number of Scandinavian arms were equipped with 'volley sights'. This would apply to arms like the Danish Rolling-Block rifles. Some of the proto-type Krag-Jorgensen rifles also contained this feature.

Springfield Armory has Krag-Jorgensen rifle, serial #100, which is believed to be "Krag-Jorgensen test rifle #5". This rifle design was further refined and adopted, as U.S. magazine rifle - Model of 1892.
The prototype rifle, serial number 100, has an off-set notch on the rear-sight 'slide' and a 'blade' on the front barrel-band. (Unfortunately, the Springfield Armory proto-type rifle has its front barrel-band on backwards, so the auxiliary 'blade' is on the wrong side of the rifle).

The original rear-sight used on the U.S. model 1892 magazine-rifle, (Krag-Jorgensen), has a lot of metal on the right-end of the elevation 'slide'. IMHO - This is a vestige from the proto-type sight, that was 'notched' in this area to serve as a volley-fire sight.
It is noteworthy that the U.S. did not utilize 'off-set' volley sights on their arms, but, came to relish and celebrate long-range target matches, like the Palma Match.

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[Alex.California]

Very interesting. As I happen to have it right here, here's a pic of the sight for a 1894 St Denis Mauser that was re-configured by the French for the Uraguayan army (if I'm not mistaken).

It has the ladder sights on it and interestingly, when laid down, the different positions of the slider will set the sight at what looks like the different levels below the 9 on the ladder.

[Daan Kemp]

Butlersrangers
True, the Boer were riflemen used to small group fighting and no or minimum casualties. Therefore, longer distances to keep them away. Engaging the enemy at a distance and then withdrawing not to commit forces. Lots of individual thinking and action. The long distance formal battles were the exception.
On the other hand the British were very much used to massed columns and squares in battle. Volleys fired on command, little individual shooting. Took them some years to partially adapt.
Two very different cultures meeting on the battlefield.
Still wondering what mad the powers that be decide on the massive distances required for rifle sights. There must have been some creative unthinking with widely unrelated conclusions based on hearsay facts to decide on that.