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  1. #11
    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    And another thing...

    ... Look at the wood around the lockplate. Note the chips in the wood along the bottom edge and at the rear. A lock (not necessarily the one we see now) was at one time incompetently levered out. This is a common type of damage on guns that have been messed around.

    BTW, I think that the dings between the backsight and the barrel band, referred to in a previous post, could have resulted from someone driving off the band with a screwdriver or something "pointy".
    - More evidence of incompetent dismantling.

    Finally, please note that - apart from the question of the manufacturing date, for which I do not possess the source information,***
    - all my comments are based on LOOKING at what I can SEE in the photos. They do not depend on the type of gun.

    LOOK at what you can SEE and ignore what the seller wants you to imagine!


    ***Oops! I must correct myself. Of course, it's in Frasca & Hill (which I have).
    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 01-26-2022 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Correction

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  3. #12
    Legacy Member 504PIR's Avatar
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    Thread Starter
    Patrick Chadwick,
    Private message sent.
    Thanks

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  5. #13
    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    A public comment initiated by a private query

    I have been informed that the text which I described as a seller's puff originated with someone whom one would expect to have known better.

    I am not a Trapdoor expert - although I do have one myself, and, of course the definitive work on the trapdoor by Frasca & Hill - "The 45-70 Springfield". Where, on Page 376, Appendix F: Tables and Charts, F-1. Production Data by Fiscal Year, one can read that no carbines were produced from 1882 to 1885, as others have already stated.

    But, as I pointed out in my last posts, my comments do not depend on the type of rifle. The fundamental question when evaluating any old rifle is: Do the parts look as if they grew old together?

    Many people overlook this, and again and again on the forums I have seen people expounding on "whether this is the correct part for 3:15 in the afternoon of the umpteenth of Octebruary, nineteen hundred and whatever" while failing to see that those parts, as genuine and original as they might be individually, have obviously been put together at a much later date in their existence. That is why I pointedly wrote LOOK at what you SEE. For instance, that may be a genuine lock in a genuine carbine stock, but I cannot believe that they left the factory together.

    My opinions are AFAICS - WAHTOIMH
    As Far As I Can See - Without Actually Having The Object In My Hands

    So I may well be wrong. In that case I would be grateful for corrective evidence.

    But until then, I stand by my comments.
    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 01-26-2022 at 06:27 PM.

  6. #14
    Advisory Panel Dick Hosmer's Avatar
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    Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings but, while that exact number does not show up, 240858 does, as a rifle, ditto for all others - in both directions - for as far as the eye can see.

  7. #15
    Advisory Panel Dick Hosmer's Avatar
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    Those LOOK like Al Frasca's pictures, and SOME of the description sounds LIKE his standard verbiage - yet he would NEVER, EVER pull a phony stunt. Something is not meeting the eye here. Is the gun you received the same one as in the pictures? Also, not mentioned anywhere is the truly awful-looking shoulder gap at the barrel band. It is theoretically POSSIBLE that the arm was repaired at some point with a rifle receiver, but Al would have pointed that out. I don't like it.

  8. #16
    Legacy Member butlersrangers's Avatar
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    The front-sight base appears to have been freshly drilled and the blade pin looks to be an over-size replacement.

    It does not look like arsenal work. (Burred & apparent punch mark)

    It is just another one of those inconsistencies in fit and finish that Patrick Chadwick has alluded to.
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    Last edited by butlersrangers; 02-02-2022 at 12:29 PM.

  9. #17
    Advisory Panel Patrick Chadwick's Avatar
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    504PIR, the word “Bannerman” comes to mind.

    As you may not have heard of this company, a word of explanation is on order. From what I have read, it seems that Bannerman became notorious in the late 19th C. for buying up obsolete/replaced/reject components as scrap from Springfield and then turning them into complete guns which were then sold as being original. This led to Springfield stopping such sales when the fraud was discovered. So “Bannerman” is a generic name for Springfield “bitsas”, although what we see here could have been made by anybody, any time.

    Summarizing the content of this thread, there seems little doubt that this is such a “bitsa” made from a cut-down rifle system installed in a very second-hand carbine stock.

    I hope it’s a good shooter.
    Last edited by Patrick Chadwick; 02-03-2022 at 06:04 AM.

  10. #18
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick View Post
    From what I have read, it seems that Bannerman became notorious in the late 19th C. for buying up obsolete/replaced/reject components as scrap from Springfield and then turning them into complete guns
    That he did. He was a surplus dealer that knew how to glean a dollar. I have a collection of his catalogues.
    Regards, Jim

  11. Thank You to browningautorifle For This Useful Post:


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