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  1. #1
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    inspired by Madcap

    Well. I've never owned a shotgun before. Only ever fired one in non-lethal weapons training...the day after they pepper sprayed us. I was in the back of the class and didn't hear them say take your contacts out first. My eyes were still on fire the next day shooting bean bags.

    So, the shotgun gods smiled on me as I pursued my local sources and the online auctions. I not only landed a beautiful silky smooth and clean 1924 made model 12, 30inch full choke, but with only about 3% of it's finish left and very used wood...I also landed what looked like NOS (or at least very well maintained) 21 inch barrel with extension, marked CYL!. I'm thinking of refinishing it, keeping the original frontend, and making a separate trench gun clone front end for when it sits around the house not chasing turkeys or other foul.

    But wait, there is more. An 1897 Winchester is on it's way - I think it's serial is in the 400k range? - with what seems to be only a broken barrel extension where the mag tube fits. I think I might do the same with it...eventually. My spreadsheet tells me when it's all said an done, I'll have ~900 in the model 12, and even a bit less in the 97, and if they end up worth half as much as the last few clone trench guns, or Norinco knock offs, went for on gunbroker...I may have the first year of one of the kids' college sitting in the safe ...provided their value keeps pace with the rampant inflation anyway.
    Last edited by ssgross; 03-21-2022 at 08:24 PM.

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    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Chuck in Denver ... Buy-Sell-Trade .. Guns, Cars Motorcycles Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

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    Contributing Member Ovidio's Avatar
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    Reading your post I was reminded of a recent meme…
    I hope it will work out better for you
    Nice catches!

    34a cp., btg. Susa, 3° rgt. Alpini

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  5. #3
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Well, the shotgun gods smiled on me once more. Several years ago Numrich made (or had made for them) reproduction 1897 trenchgun barrels for conversions. One popped up online and I snagged it. Hopefully the original full choke bore isn't too badly pitted that I can save it, so I have both front ends to swap when I'm done. It's gonna be another long project(s). I'll post pics when when everything gets here, then take my time learning and getting by bearings cleaning them up before converting.

  6. #4
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    my model 12 barrel came in. measures 21 inches from the breech...but now I know why it was sold. The barrel extension was overclocked, with the witness marks off by no more that 1/16 inch. I removed the outer adjustment bushing, clamped the barrel in my barrel vise, and took the extension off pretty easily with a big crescent wrench. Looking at the part, the extension stops with the witness marks lined up, but doesn't torque there. Of course when it was on, the bead was noticeably off.

    It can likely still be salvaged. We aren't talking that much, just a bit of a shoulder crush. I can (a) try to lightly peen the barrel shoulder, (b) use some aluminum tape and a razor blade to make spacer, or (c) flux the faces, put it on, clean off all the flux off the outside, back it off a hair, sweat in some solder, and tighten until aligned, polishing off any excess.
    Or (d) any better idea any of you have. I think (a) and then (b) if that fails would be fine. Solder is overkill. Hell, I don't know the torque spec anyway. should probably figure that out before I change my name to bubba I don't even have a shotgun yet!

    EDIT: I know these won't be easy projects...proper fit of the chamber ring, etc. and etc., but I'll see how far I can take it before I get stuck.
    Last edited by ssgross; 03-24-2022 at 05:05 PM.

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    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    The barrel extension was overclocked
    Usual procedure would be to give it one more complete turn and rechamber it.
    Regards, Jim

  8. #6
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    Usual procedure would be to give it one more complete turn and rechamber it.
    hmm. it didn't take very much at all to get it off, and there is no serial number on the extension. maybe it wasn't overclocked at all, and just snugged up by hand. not knowing how tight they are supposed to be makes me wonder if it is supposed to get another turn. I'll try to measure the threads and see how much crush I'll get on the shoulder. the threads are very, very fine. if I tighten with my just my hands and manly grip strength, I get the marks lined up where they were...slightly past alignment.

    the '97 on it's way needs a new extension, so I'll have another to play with.

    EDIT: looks like 32 threads per inch, which would be about 30 thousandths forward with another turn. I'll wait until the shotguns get here. Numrich has new replacement extensions, which I need one anyway for the 97. I'll see if one of those are any better. Jim, you're great at pointing out how much I wish I had a lathe by now
    Last edited by ssgross; 03-24-2022 at 07:26 PM.

  9. #7
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    how much I wish I had a lathe by now
    Worst thing is...I was about to ask again whether you had one or not. That would have just added.

    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    wonder if it is supposed to get another turn
    They do have quite an amount they can be adjusted too. That was the whole idea. Remove the screw, slip the keeper and turn the ring a couple of notches. Lock it up again and try it.
    Regards, Jim

  10. #8
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    Worst thing is...I was about to ask again whether you had one or not. That would have just added.
    I've gotten very close to dropping on one, even closer when beer is involved with the decision making process. I'm afraid though if I did, I'd have to give up my brewery in the garage to make room. It would make it harder to move too when I'm finally through with the rat race. No, I'll wait till my kiddos are safely on their way to adulthood, then early retirement, teach part time and maybe hang my shingle out somewhere quiet with 1,000yds in the backyard.

    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifle View Post
    They do have quite an amount they can be adjusted too. That was the whole idea. Remove the screw, slip the keeper and turn the ring a couple of notches. Lock it up again and try it.
    All the reading about "wearing over time" and people's woes trying to tighten back up and realign made me look long and hard at the schematics of the design. It looks to me like the only source of "wear" that would cause the barrel/receiver mating to loosen up is the metal-on-metal friction between the forward face of the chamber ring and the breech face of the barrel, when twisting in and out, and maybe from vibrations under recoil. Thus the recommendation from most of not taking the forend off with every cleaning, etc. I would think, on the other hand, that a little very high temp lubricant, like a nickel anti-sieze, on the surface of the chamber ring, would add to the longevity.

    I think me, as well as Madcap's project, will need to find those 3 reamers, and likely a special tool to install chamber rings, or resort to sending out when we are all done. I read an account from an old winchester employee somewhere else that the final chamber ring alignment and barrel fitting was done at the very end, after all the bluing and fitting of everything else. If that's the case, then we have plenty of time to figure it out.

    From the description of fitting a chamber ring, it looks like 1) special tool to screw it into place 2) a tiny set screw to lock it in place 3a) a tapered reamer, just narrow enough to clear the choke if present, is pushed from the muzzle only to rough cut the ring, and align the hole to the bore. 3b) stubby pull through finishing reamer to finish the ring flush to the chamber (don't forget some mandrels in the bore to maintain alignment), then 4) rimmed pull through reamer to set the final headspace.
    Given the function of each step, I'd think it shouldn't be hard to have a set made by, say, calling Dave Manson.

  11. #9
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    I've gotten very close to dropping on one
    When you do, spend what you need to and get the right one. Consider your threading issues and through bore when buying. Bigger is better.
    Regards, Jim

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  13. #10
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Well. I don't know what I did to deserve such luck. I popped in to Cabelas this afternoon with my daughter to do my lap. No powder, no bullets I need or don't already have thousands of...but they did have a couple dozen bricks of small rifle magnum primers, which I can't use but was refreshing to see. Passed by the gun library, not expecting to see much. Milsurps there, even the bubba'd ones, go for way too much, but I like looking. I circled, and did a double take. An 1897 winchester takedown...quick google showed 700k lands in 1923. 10% finish left, all it's parts seem to be there. front end just a tiny bit loose, and a slight crack in the wrist...$320 after my veteran's discount. 30inch full choke. Picking up the 97 with the broken extension, and the model 12, from the ffl over the weekend. Will take plenty of pics.

    I need to go buy a lottery ticket.
    Last edited by ssgross; 06-09-2022 at 04:06 PM.

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