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  1. #11
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    I've been at that buggered screw all weekend long.
    First attempt...what little slot was left I deepened with a needle tip diamond abrasive tool on my dremmel. It worked to deepen the slot, but no go on backing the screw out.
    Next attempt, drill a 1.5mm pilot with a center drill on the drill press. Measuring the other screw, if I stop just shy of the taper, I should have the threaded part of the screw with a hole in it, and weakened the pin part to where it will break easily. Worked like a charm. Couple light taps with a brass punch on the back of the chamber ring, and the pin sheared off, leaving the screw in the hole to be dealt with. The fragment of pin has a dimple from the drill dead center. Way to go my hole is centered!
    here is what the screw looks like for reference...


    Next attempt, with a t6 screwdriver bit in the drill press, press it in and rotate the chuck. The edges bit into the hole well enough, but didn't back out the screw. just tore up the hole. Still, there is plenty of meat left on the screw and the original threads are undamaged.

    Last resort now, clean out the screw as best I can, and chase the threads with a tap. What threads are it? Now it gets interesting. The other hole appears to be tapped all the way through, but the screw does not pass through. I bet they tapped with a plug, but not deep enough so the bottom threads are too narrow. The screw is 0.118 in major diameter, which isn't on any chart. The closest thing in an m3. Well, I had one and the m3 screw goes all the way in, but I can't even start the winchester screw into a m3 nut, which I had too. After digging out a magnifying glass and a pitch gauge, I think I'm looking at a 40 TPI screw? I don't have a 44 or 48 gauge. The diameter is too big to be 6-40 (verified by tapping a scrap of aluminum), and too small to be 5-40,44...but of course I don't have a set of #5 taps to try. Oh well, it'll be next weekend before I can try again, just enough time to get taps in the mail. At least my hole is clean, centered, and ready to go.
    Last edited by ssgross; 07-10-2022 at 10:23 PM.

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  3. #12
    Legacy Member wjw's Avatar
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    If I am looking at the correct screw, according to the chart in "Encyclopedia of Modern Firearms - Parts & Assembly" for Winchester your screw is part #4797 and is headless with a dog point - dimensions for the dog point are length 0.165" and diameter 0.088"; overall length 0.300" with a threaded length of 0.135" at .121x48.

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  6. #13
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Thanks for looking that up wjw! I need to find me a copy of that.
    According to my chart...
    https://www.thomasnet.com/articles/c...and-diameters/
    that puts us right in the middle of the max/min major diameter of a seemingly non-standard #5-48...which can be had on fleabay. We'll be testing on an aluminum block first of course.
    No reason now I can't go ahead and proceed with bluing while I wait.
    Last edited by ssgross; 07-11-2022 at 07:35 AM.

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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    My #5-48 tap came in from fleabay yesterday. I test drilled and tapped some holes in an 1/4 inch aluminum plate to make sure it would work with my screw. Starting with a #37 bit, I worked my way up to tighter holes. A #39 gave a good, snug of my screw, becoming tight just as the head became flush, which is just like the screw in the other side of the receiver. I knew I had the thread count right because because with a #37 tapped hole, the screw went in easy, no slop, and passed all the way through with no effort. So, I made sure my hole was cleaned out with a #40 on the drill press. Then I chucked up a #39 and and turned it by hand. I could feel it grabbing shards of metal and pulling them out of the original threads.
    Being careful to keep the tap square, I could feel it catching the original threads. When it was all done, sticking a small magnet in the receiver found a round shard of screw with 2 threads, about 90+% intact all the way around. It turned out perfect.
    We be bluing the receiver tomorrow!

  8. #15
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    got the receiver prepped and blued. Turned out nice. I left some of the deeper pits and dings for character so that it matches the well worn original butt.

    You can see some light horizontal scratches down the length of the receiver. They weren't too deep so I sanded them out...but wouldn't ya know they came back as soon as I wiped on the first iteration of solution. So I lightly sanded them out and started over...same thing. So I kept going. they are just barely visible in the finished product. After some reading, I think they might be stress lines from the original forging. When the metal was white and degreased, they lightly rusted within 15 minutes after my final rinse.

    the other 97 I'm working on (haven't touched yet) has this lines pretty deep on both sides. I thought they were scratches, but now I think it's the grain of the metal. Here is the other one.


    bolt and carrier are done rust blued now too. Moving on to all the screw heads that need cleaned up and blued to match.

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  10. #16
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    I think they might be stress lines from the original forging. When the metal was white and degreased, they lightly rusted within 15 minutes after my final rinse.
    I wonder...if they might be dissimilar metal? Thus the rust and the definite line? We used to see those in '94 Winchester receivers too when they were worn to the white. Older ones of course...just exactly like what you show.
    Regards, Jim

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  12. #17
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by browningautorifleicon View Post
    Older ones of course
    The one I just blued is 439xxx from 1910, and the one yet to be blued is 739xxx is 1924. I chose to turn the former into the trench gun since it came with the broken barrel extension, so alas it won't have one serialized to the gun. The one I haven't reblued yet only needed a new barrel adjusting sleeve (which it has now). Both barrels are 30 inch full choke. The latter will stay that way. Since it won't be a real trench gun, I'm half tempted to tap the front end for choke inserts to make it more versatile. Lotta work to do yet before I get to that decision point, especially if I need to finish-filing the bayonet adapter myself.
    Given the initial condition I found both of these in, it's a real joy bringing them back to life. might need to spring for new wood, depending on how they look when I'm done. The trench gun might just need brass pins in the wrist to complete the look, there is not a crack, but a large splinter in the usual place.

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    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    we are coming along. Cleaning up and re-blueing visible screw heads, pins, etc. Took some time to get the chamber ring re-aligned, but it's perfect. A bit of anti-sieze grease around the outside, and a flat tip screwdriver makes it easy to align once it's in its spot. I'm sure there is/was a tool for this to rotate it when it's in place. I'll put that tool on my to-do list to make when I quit my day-job and hang out my shingle.

    When re-assembling the carrier, two things happened. First, the slide lock release plunger was missing. Very annoying. I searched everywhere for hours thinking I lost it, and no dice. Now I'm very careful, especially with something as complicated as a '97. I have a tray with compartments to keep all the assemblies separate. I doubt I lost it. After reading I find that some competition shooters remove the whole slide lock assembly from the carrier to improve timing when cycling. So my guess is it was missing. I ordered a plunger, pretty cheap, all is well. I'm not crazy...but I only realized I'm not after troubleshooting the second matter while typing this. Read on.

    I find there is an extra pin in the bin for the carrier parts. It's pretty grimy with rust, no bluing on it, and the ends look like they were clipped with wire cutters and filed to "mostly" square. It certainly came out of the gun...from the carrier, and is same diameter, and roughly the same length as main spring retaining pin (front of the carrier).
    I wonder if it was...well wouldn't ya know I just figured it out. it's .005 wider than the slide lock plunger, but still fits snugly in the hole for it with the push of a finger, and happens to be the same length as the long side of the plunger. Question answered...the pin was a bubba fix for a missing slide lock plunger. All is well with the world once again. Back to work.

  15. #19
    Contributing Member ssgross's Avatar
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    Information about my butts

    Quote Originally Posted by ssgross View Post
    439xxx from 1910, and the one yet to be blued is 739xxx is 1924
    So both of these are E series (the former is being trenched in this thread). I need to make some decisions about butts and buttplates. From these shotguns I have 1 stock with a splinter on the wrist, and not-yet-seperated cracks either side of the tang hole, and gives 13" LOP. On the other is a stock with a splinter on the wrist, no crack, but gives just under 11" LOP, and was obviously cut back. They both have the hard plastic/rubber buttplate. I'm inclined to pin and repair the wrist for the trench gun, see how it cleans up, before I decide on new wood. In any event, I need to decide what buttplate to use on it - the existing ones are all chewed up and you can't make out much of the logo anymore. The best info I have found is in this thread...
    https://winchestercollector.org/foru...-and-buttpads/
    My serial numbers are right in the middle of those purchased by the govt. Too late to have had the original smooth metal buttplates. But, the thread above says the hard rubber logo buttplates were installed on premium guns, and standard grade field guns wore the checkered metal plates with widows peak until about 1922 when the hard rubber logos were used on everything.
    I can't find a picture anywhere of any 1897 with the checkered metal buttplate installed. Does anyone have one in original condition and can post a picture of its fit? Does the peak sit proud or flush?
    Lastly, thoughts on whether the govt. purchased standard grade shotguns with checkered metal plates? I can't find any pictures of those either. Of course all the trench guns for sale with lots of pictures are of dubious origins, outright fakes, or honest clones, none of which answers my question. I have one of each...checkered metal buttplate and a minty hard rubber logo plate, so I can go either way on this.
    Last edited by ssgross; 08-19-2022 at 04:43 PM.

  16. #20
    Legacy Member Tom Doniphon's Avatar
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    All Winchester Model 1897/97 and Model 12 trench guns used the black hard rubber buttplate with Winchester logo. When the rubber buttplates were damaged, the military often replaced them with a Winchester metal checkered buttplate with a widow's peak. It's the same one that was used on Winchester Model 70s.

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