repro scope and mount "antiqued to deceive" on GB

[Lee Enfield]

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/938092549

repro scope and repro bracket "antiqued" to deceive

[82Trooper]

So help educate me...what do you see that gives this away as not original...the scope the mount or patina/condition? I would like to someday acquire one of these, and am very curious some of the obvious/or not so obvious clues that give this away.
Thanks.
Mike

[tiriaq]

Sometime in the past was a sporter.
A humped assembly...

[old tanker]

...and the typical "I am not an expert..." weasel wording

[limpetmine]

That muzzle ain't right.

[smle addict]

Hello 82Trooper,

Here are a couple of clues, although is this by no means a definitive guide. So here goes:

1. the scope on the auction link is a newer reproduction. The biggest clue is serial number on that scope. William Watson (W-W) Mk 2 scopes began at 12000 and ended at 16499, with 4500 units produced. These mk 2 repro's (as the one pictured in the auction) have serial numbers that are well above the end of the Mk 2 production block of W-W scopes (Laidler, "Telescope sighting No 32," 1992, page 32)

2. The mount itself looks "worked" over to give it a well travelled look. But the dings and dents look deliberate and not the random damage see on used originals. To me, it looks like that mount was worked over with a wire brush, had a scope serial number added to the mount, then smoothed over to take the edges off. Perhaps another round of wire brushing and cold blue, along with some deliberate denting from a ball peen hammer or chisel, and it now has the "look." I have attached pics of two mounts on rifles with Mk 2 scopes. These pics show the somewhat rough finish on the mounts, both JG marked John Daglish examples.

3. Original mounts and scopes bear evidence of some crude finish work. I have included a few pics of two of my T's wearing Mk 2 scopes. Once is a Kodak Ltd with a four digit serial number in the proper range (8XXX), and a William Watson with a serial number toward the end of the production run for Mk 2's (16XXX). Compare these to the auction scope, and you'll start to see the subtle differences.

4. I have handled several No4 T's and have a collection of 12, and I have never seen a scope serial number stamped on the mount. Again, I'm no expert, and I am not trying to brag about skills, but typically, mounts are seen either un-numbered, or stamped with a rifle serial number.

If you compare the fonts on my two scopes with the font on the auction piece, it becomes more clear. Between the W-W and the Kodak, the fonts are slightly different. The repro one looks more clear and crisp than it should be for a wartime production item.

*Note: one of my Mk2 scopes pictured was rebuilt a few years ago and purchased from Roger Payne. Thats why it looks so clean and new, as many of the components were damaged and replaced with repro lead screws and cheese screws. The other Mk 2 is in its original condition, complete with yellowing fill on the scripts and range/elevation graduations.

Also, the picture of the my scopes, back to front, you can see how the little triangle that indicates the range setting is slightly offset between scopes. Laidler commented some time back the range indicator mark was etched after the scope was assembled, to ensure it lined up with the range drum. I also have a few Mk I scopes that have this offset.

Last, the rifle itself. A real No 4T, but unfortunately circumcised for some awful reason. Also, if you blow up the auction picture, you can see an older serial number in the wrist, just below where the repro scope serial number was stamped (rather heavily stamped, too).

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that rifle has been up on auction before, and was discussed at length on this forum.

Hope this helps in someway. Someone with more experience can add much more I'm sure, but these obvious discrepancies are what hit me at 10:30pm on a thursday night.

[Daan Kemp]

The wood fits too smoothly at the wrist?

[82Trooper]

Thank you for taking the time to educate me.

[MAC702]

Sold for opening bid of $3200.

[smle addict]

Ouch! Well over the sum of the parts. The repro scope and base are around $450-$500. I hardly think a No4 (T) with a cut barrel would be worth $2700.

It pays to do your homework on these....