No 3 Mk 1 (T) (P14 with Warner-Swasey)

[Riter]

On the remote possibility that there may be one in the UK, I sent an inquiry to the Royal Amouries Museum in Leeds

[Riter]

The Royal Armouries in Leeds does not have one.

[Roy W]

Here is an interesting pic, WW2 era, hence the BREN.

[Riter]

Thanks. There's another picture of the same Canadian sniper with that rifle. Can't seem to find it right now. About 150 of the Warner-Swasey equipped P-14s saw service with the First Canadian Division and no one seems to have one today. I should check the auction house catalogs. It's got to be the rarest of all Western sniper rifles.

[Roy W]

this one?

[Riter]

That's it!

[Surpmil]

Thanks. There's another picture of the same Canadian sniper with that rifle. Can't seem to find it right now. About 150 of the Warner-Swasey equipped P-14s saw service with the First Canadian Division and no one seems to have one today. I should check the auction house catalogs. It's got to be the rarest of all Western sniper rifles.

If I remember correctly the records that we know of indicated 80 were converted with the possibility of another 80 or so done later. Personally I doubt more were done. Even though there is reason to believe that in WWI most of the W&S scopes saw limited use even for training in the U.K. (where there was some kind of sniper school reportedly, either Canadian or British), and logically they would have probably picked out the best scopes to send with the 1st Division in 1939/40, the defects of the design would make it of questionable value. Recall that in WWI the dispatch of the balance of the W&S fitted Rosses had been declined by the Canadian Corps in France.

The Canadian Army, other than the 1st Division's brief combat in France in 1940, were kept in the UK doing only training and "home defence" duties until the Dieppe schmozzle, and then again until the invasion of Sicily. We have photos taken during that time of training, but so far none have surfaced showing the W&S-Patt.14 combination in use. Instead we see stuff like SMLE's and Patt.14 rifles with target iron sights. It's possible that having no prospect of proper issue, the Canadian Army decided to keep those rifles in store until combat operations were in the offing to prevent wear and tear, but that's just a hypothesis on my part.

What we do know is that despite all the flaws of the scope, the rifles were taken to Italy as even then the issue of No.4(T)'s was not complete due to slow production, which I've commented on previously.

[Riter]

On pages 29-30 of Without Warning, Clive Law wrote:

"When, in 1939,the 1st Canadian Infantry Divison went overseas they brought with them 80 Warney & Swayze sights. These sights then had the mounts removed adn the new mounts made to fit the No. 3 MK. I* rifles which were issued by the British in the United Kingdom. In May 1940 additional 80 W&S sights were requested. Some of these scopes were used by Canadian snipers throughout the Italian Campaign.

[D]espite continuing deliveries to tthe Canadian Army (Overseas) of the W&S sights there remained 267 rifle and sight combinations in Canada."

Too bad Clive crossed the Styx. I met him at a Company off Military Historians Conference in Virginia and wasn't doing WW II research yet (and thus not inquisitive or insightful enough to pose questions to him).

[Surpmil]

Thanks for checking WW, you'll notice that there is no confirmation that the second batch were shipped. The remaining number in Canada cannot be subtracted from 500 to arrive at total fitted to the Patt.14 for the reason that there were only 385 sights and 208 Ross rifles with bases in store in the late 1930s. That leaves us with 385-267=118 scopes that could potentially have been fitted to the Patt.14s. Those numbers suggest that most of the scopes and probably all of the rifles sent to France in WWI were destroyed in action, or scrapped after WWI, or in a few cases never turned in after the war was over. It would be normal to take some as spares for the 1st Division's rifles, and allowing for the same in Canada that pretty much accounts for the 385 I suggest.