British Military Bronze Green Paint

[Flying10uk]

It has been suggested to me that the reason that the British army used the gloss/semi gloss bronze green paint for a period of time during the 1950's/60's is because it was believed that it may be reflective to infrared. I could never understand why this particular paint was a gloss finish while pretty much all other British army vehicle paint had and still has a matt finish and if the reason is because it was an attempt to make it reflective to infrared that does sound entirely plausible. It would be interesting to know if this is correct and, if correct, what factors made the paint reflective to infrared, i.e. was it just making the paint gloss or was something else done to the paint as well.

[Roy W]

I seem to recall that paint we got from stores was labelled IRR

Infra Red Reflective.

Not sure whether this was bronze green though.

[Surpmil]

I thought the idea was to not reflect the IR illumination? If the goal is to live out one's three score and ten?

As for gloss versus drab in paints, armies, for the use of, parades and inspections occur daily whereas wars are quite infrequent and why not enjoy the glossy shine that is inherent to good order and discipline wherever possible? Vehicles can always be given a quick respray if war should come, or so the thinking might go if past habits are any indication?

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Most likely answer is that some big wheel at the MOD signed of an order for a z8llion gallons of "paint and then had to find a use for warehouses full of the stuff. As this was the "Cold War" era, it seems unlikely that battlefield functionality came into the discussion. Here in Oz,of that paint also turned up and was used here in Oz, on, as I recall, Saladins, Saracens and Ferrets. Can't say I ever saw any M-113s similarity decorated. Anyone remember shiny Centurions?.

By the late 1960s, probably influenced by participation in the South East Asian War-games, EVERYTHING was Matte Olive Drab, even the food.......

[Peter Laidler]

I always understood that the new, smarter gloss Deep Bronze Green paint was introduced as part of a smartening up the army vehicles that would be retained post-war. It was also more hard wearing than the old scamic (?) type paints used during the war. The change-over period was indeed during the very late 60's into the early 70's. All of our old REME stuff was gloss and over a period of months went to IRR paint as Roy recalls it. The 434's, Scammels, Half0track fitters lorries, the Centurions....... The only exceptions were the 'light fleet' such as cars and light vans which remained a gloss deep bronze green. That was until Lord Rayner in his review decided, quite rightly, that these basically commercial vehicles would be purchased in commercial colours.

There was a certain irony at the time....... I recall brand new Land Rovers, one I had, 36ER24 etc coming from the big vehicle depots as replacements, coming to us in the early 70's in gloss deep bronze. Only to go straight into the MT bays where the MT blokes would daub them in IRR green and black.......... You'd think that a gradual change-over would have sufficed!

[bigduke6]

paint ......... Its quite a subject in the Military vehicle circles, but there are owners who put there own artistic licence on some vehicles and they look awful .......can never get my head around it, they spend many months / years on rebuilding there pride and joy then make a terrible choice on paint.

IRR paint on UK vehicles never appeared until mid to late 70's, Landrovers leaving Solihull would still be in DBG until the production lines took on the IRR paint, this was a lighter more olive slightly brown colour and a semi matt finish.

Existing vehicles in Regiments would when required or due a re paint, would be painted in IRR green paint, not exactly the same shade as factory paint, less brown and more matt, This was often called Nato Green and often thought it was applied to all Nato vehicles........... which is not the case, it was called NATO green due to the Nato stock code on the tin.

Then there was black, (I remember clearing out a disused garage at our unit, we found black matt but not IRR) , the black IRR, was applied for the camouflage pattern as most of us would remember from late 70's -80's 1/3 black and 2/3 green.

Post War..... best of the crop of vehicles were kept and painted when the need arose, not sure on colours but most would be olive drab until the paint tins were empty, Motorcycles in particular, some retained there War or post war finish until they were de-mobbed, BSA M20's were still in use in the 70's, in fact my oldest Brother mentioned working on them when he was in 42 Command Workshop (Deysbrook Barracks , Liverpool)

I,ve a BSA WD B40 in DBG, Matchless WD G3L and BSA M20 still retained some Olive Drab. The Royal Enfield WD C has been repainted several times, but spares I,ve sourced for all these, have various stages of War time paint, Khaki, Service Brown and Olive Drab.

There are probably only a few UK vehicles that come into service and left in the same Colour, the Austin Champ is one.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

A bit late, going around again:

Infra-Red Reflective?

Once "image intensifiers" ("Starlight scopes" and "thermal" devices started appearing, a LOT of re-thinking was required.

One of the key bones of contention was the use of "BLACK" in camouflage schemes.

"Black" absorbs light energy; reflecting very little. Thud "black objects get hot when left out in sunlight. Anyone who has used an L1A1 or L7 / MaG 58 with "plastic" furniture may have noted. The synthetic furniture was adopted because using a steam cleaner to decontaminate NBC-infected wood is very harsh on the furniture.

This "heat", being re-radiated shows up like a Christmas tree on Thermal sights and scanners and, to some degree on better "image intensifiers".

Hence the relatively short service life of the US "chocolate chip" battle-dress.

Walking Christmas trees.

A quick glance at "modern" combat clothing reveals muted browns, greys and greens in various combinations. (Then, there is the unusual Swiss cammo with blotches of "Autumn Red", but NO black, as I recall.)

Infra-red / thermal optics for small arms sights are now quite compact, light and robust.

Another aside: all serious "starlight" optics had, from memory, a 'mechanical shutter" system; this was to close the ocular lense exit when the user moved their head away from the eyepiece. Failure to do this results in a VERY bright flash showing up in the similar gear being pointed back at YOU..

The early image intensifiers used "stacked' chains of sensors coupled to equally compact cathode ray "TV tubes", all jacked up for high "gain". That was why they were generally "long" (and heavy) devices. All of that "high-voltage / high frequency" stuff as prone to emit "X RAYS". NOT good for your basic "Eyeball, Mk1, Mod 0. A LOT of the soviet era stuff was notorious for this. (This explains why swags of that very gear ended up on the Western collector market).

These days, the "toys" are MUCH better, do not run on special batteries made from unobtanium, and can, in some cases, be "networked", via "Bluetooth". This is very useful for vehicular use; (shame about the electronic "signature" of the networking).

No matter where in the "spectrum" you are working, it is very likely you can be "sen". If you can be "seen", you know the rest.